semele

EVERYTHING WHAT YOU SAY

This has always been my "but" in debates about Stefan and Elena being more compatible as a couple. They're very well-suited in S1-2. But Elena was in a holding pattern for the entirety of those two seasons. She hasn't grown~ into who she's gonna be. (I guess this is my main reservation with Elena/Stefan. It seems like for them to really develop as characters, they have to be apart from each other. So far. We'll see.) I think their relationship worked so well last season because Elena had a strong need for comfort/shelter in the crazy of her life, and Stefan could be that for her. But what happens when she starts needing other things? She's gonna get harder, and more cynical, and she's gonna start wanting to be challenged rather than protected. It might be that whoever Elena ~ends up being will be someone more compatible with Damon after all. WE'LL SEE. I can say nothing for sure now.

BE TWISTED, ELENA. Instant way to my heart.

PREACH.

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It might be that whoever Elena ~ends up being will be someone more compatible with Damon after all.

How do you imagine it? I mean, as a relationship that can actually work, or this weird "thing" we've been talking about, when neither of them can have a functional relationship with anyone, but they can sort of comfort each other?

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Yes. That. The latter.

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But Elena was in a holding pattern for the entirety of those two seasons. She hasn't grown~ into who she's gonna be.

I just love you. Anyway. You are ABSOLUTELY right. I see Stefan and Elena as sort of security blankets for each other. As long as they stay together, they can mutually pretend to be normal and happy and ok, because that's what they both so desperately want. But they're NOT normal or happy or ok, and the longer they keep enabling each other the longer it'll take to either embrace or get over whatever darkness is within them (I vote embrace, obviously). Elena NEEDS to lose the coddling and face up to not only what's happened but what it's made her into. She didn't really make any progress as far as growing up is concerned until after Stefan was gone. This season, she's been getting stronger, getting darker, getting smarter (sometimes...), because no one's holding her hand and telling her it's ok for her to ignore all the bad things in her life (and her soul). Stefan can't stand to see Elena turn into Katherine. Damon's ok with the fact that in many ways, she already is (and always has been) Katherine.

But oddly enough, I actually think the mutual coddling relationship is more destructive for Stefan. But that's a whole other tangent.

There is no for sure about who or what will be right for Elena in the long run. For now, I'm just glad she's grown beyond the kind, caring, compassionate, supportive girl. That's lovely and all that, but I am more than ready for badass, bitter, vengeful, functioning-brain-activity Elena. Your icon says everything.

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But oddly enough, I actually think the mutual coddling relationship is more destructive for Stefan. But that's a whole other tangent.

Of course it is! I'm watching 2x14 right now, and I feel all awkward, because Stefan is totally directing everything towards Elena. Whatever you want, whatever you are comfortable with, whatever is ok for you. Ok, he's being supportive, but... it seems like he has no expectations at all; whatever Elena decides to do with their relationship will be fine with him. It's not healthy for him. Hell, it's not healthy for neither of them.

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(Man, didn't we only meet like, a few weeks ago? I FEEL AS THOUGH WE HAVE KNOWN EACH OTHER MUCH LONGER~)

Heh, I feel kind of bad about labelling Stefan as Elena's "security blanket" tho. "Parachute" seems more apt to me. (SHE DON'T NEED A PARACHUTE, BABY, IF SHE GOT -- Yeah.) She knows that he will catch her if she falls~~ In contrast, being with Damon is like falling without a net. Just like in that excellent "Big Top" fic by

unoshot. :) Any way you look at it, Damon scares the shit out of Elena. Because he can reach that dark, scary place inside of her that she kind of hates about herself. Elena isn't very good at letting people in anymore. She made a choice to let herself be vulnerable to Stefan, because she sincerely believed he'd never hurt her. But Damon. Damon knows ALL THE WAYS to hurt her. Imagine if she let herself fall in love with him. That would entail a drop off a precipice from which she may never recover. Stefan made her feel safe; Damon makes her feel out of control. She must run from this feeling.

But this: Stefan can't stand to see Elena turn into Katherine. Damon's ok with the fact that in many ways, she already is (and always has been) Katherine. -- AMEN. Elena would never be able to grow and learn to embrace the darkness~ inside herself while being with Stefan. I think she'd feel terrible about disappointing him, just as he feels terrible now about disappointing her. And agreed that it's more destructive for Stefan! Because he has a whole HEAP OF ISH that he basically brushed under the rug while he was with Elena. NOW THE DUST BUNNIES HAVE COME OUT TO PLAY. (or something)

I am more than ready for badass, bitter, vengeful, functioning-brain-activity Elena. Your icon says everything.

PREACH.

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Oh dear, I'm having a love fest on my journal. WHICH IS A GOOD THING. I feel like I've known you guys for ages myself :).

The thing is, Stefan did hurt her. So she tried to make Damon more "secure", but Damon acted out. And now it's kind of time for Elena to act out herself and to figure out that there is no secure option. Not because she is a doppelganger and she is screwed, but because this is generally how it works for people. And no, Damon won't make her safe. He is not supposed to. He is her friend, and he will help her out in most cases, but it's not his job to shield her from the world.

Elena refusing to be damsel in distress in s2 was already a step in the good direction. Btw - I'm still rewatching, and even though all the characters keep yelling at Elena that she's being suicidal, I'm just crazy in love with this girl. She calls them out on everything - that what she does is no different from what they're willing to do in order to save her. And she doesn't do it to OMG NOT BE KATHERINE, because it's stated very clearly that Katherine didn't expect Klaus to find her all family. She sacrificed Rose and Trevor, and Elena was well aware that more than one person dies in the ritual. She didn't even blink for Jules.

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And no, Damon won't make her safe. He is not supposed to. He is her friend, and he will help her out in most cases, but it's not his job to shield her from the world.

PREACH. I respect that part of their friendship a lot.

Yes, S2!Elena is excellent, HATERS TO THE LEFT. I really love how much she chafes against the pedestal everyone puts her on.

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(Fandom does that to people. And when it's real, you can't walk away. ~~Why yes, I do in fact have a TVD quote for everything.~~)

"Security blanket" does sound a bit harsh, and I don't mean to undermine their relationship completely. I just think that they keep each other locked in this static position of what they think they should be, because if the other believes in the act, they can believe it themselves (the pronouns got a bit messy there, but hopefully you get the idea). But parachute is absolutely true too (Big Top is glorious, and ridiculously accurate). Because Stefan is safe and normal and totally acceptable to her friends and family, but Damon is terrifying. Elena doesn't resist her attraction to him out of guilt or loyalty (that's not the driving reason, at least) - it's because she can't handle what loving him might do to her. What it would make her admit about herself, how it would change her - I think Elena's petrified of how much she might actually be suited to Damon. Because Damon is clearly deranged, so if she matches him, well...

I think it's worse for Stefan because Elena's only being held back temporarily. She's stalling, but she's eventually going to figure it out and grow up. But Stefan is repressing, and has been denying himself for the better part of a century. That's not stalling, that's SERIOUS self-denial, but he never thought it was temporary. It wasn't like he figured he'd try this animal-blood, almost-human lifestyle for a while and then try to work up to being a functioning vampire. He NEVER intended to learn control. It's all or nothing with him, and Elena doesn't know any better, so she thinks encouraging him is what he needs, when it's sort of the opposite of what he needs. Damon was actually absolutely right about what Stefan needed to do, but because he's Damon, and he presents even his most rational thought processes like Damon, his path was never taken into consideration. This is SUCH a tangent. I'll stop.

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~~I actually hate that quote b/c this fandom overuses it SO MUCH. And both the S/E and D/E sides seem to believe that that quote belongs to them exclusively. It's hilarious.~~

I just think that they keep each other locked in this static position of what they think they should be, because if the other believes in the act, they can believe it themselves (the pronouns got a bit messy there, but hopefully you get the idea).

Yessss, I do indeed. To expand on this--I don't think Elena chooses Stefan because he's necessarily the "safe" option. (He is safe, but in a different way.) I think Elena's insta-attraction back in S1 was dependent on the fact that he was an outsider, like her. He harboured a lot of guilt and pain and capacity for darkness, but he tried to be good. Elena's life was marked with Death, and then Death walked into her life again, but this time, Death was Good. That was the key. That was inspiring to Elena. They were both seeking the same thing (a new start, a place to belong), and they found it with each other, a way out of the darkness. BUT, of course, that only works insofar as the both of them remain free of darkness themselves.

So, yeah. What you said. I guess when I think of S/E and D/E, I have two completely different mental images. With S/E, it's the image of one person holding another's hand and leading them out of a dark room. With D/E, it's of two people sitting in that dark room together. I think you get the idea. Also, LOL @ this: Because Damon is clearly deranged, so if she matches him, well... -- Yes. Whichever way you look at it, Damon throws her off. WHICH IS WHY I LIKE THEM SO.

But Stefan is repressing, and has been denying himself for the better part of a century. That's not stalling, that's SERIOUS self-denial, but he never thought it was temporary.

WORD. It was seriously questionable for this 150+ vampire to put his life-endangering addiction in the hands of a teenage girl. Elena is boss, but she had NO CONCEPT of what it was like for him. How could she? Let's not buy into The Power of Love, dude.

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~~But the overused quotes are so much easier to remember! I'll try harder next time.~~

I like how you describe the genesis of S/E. I REALLY like the idea that the death in Stefan is what appeals to Elena. It makes sense - she's looking around at this world she used to belong in, where no one understands how lost and angry and guilty she feels, and here comes this guy who gets it, even feels it to a greater extent. To be clear, I have zero problem with Elena and her views of her relationship with Stefan for most of season 1. Stefan, I have more problems with, but again, neither here nor there.

BUT, of course, that only works insofar as the both of them remain free of darkness themselves.

This is SO key for me. Because I think the relationship starts to get really unhealthy right around when Stefan has his human blood relapse. Because Elena takes it all upon herself to get him through this, to be there for him, to be strong, and as much as she's wonderful for caring and trying and supporting him through anything, she is in WAY over her head (I still don't think she entirely realizes this, even after everything). She can't fix Stefan, much like she can't fix Damon. The problem is that, Stefan thinks she can. He believes in The Power of Love, poor guy, and he lets her take on his battle. And then the ship gets really problematic for me, because if these issues had been dealt with it would have been fascinating, but instead they carried on the charade of functional for another whole season.

I know your dark room image well, and it pleases me. I always liked dark rooms myself. :)

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She can't fix Stefan, much like she can't fix Damon. The problem is that, Stefan thinks she can.

I don't think Stefan actually believes that. Stefan is not delusional about himself. He stays with Elena, because it brings him so much comfort it's hard for him to break up with her, but he knows it won't fix him. He lets her try to fix him, because it works for the time being, and that's enough for him.

Btw, when Stefan started drinking Elena's blood, it was SO disturbing for me. I honestly thought they'd go really dark from there.

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I completely agree that Stefan isn't delusional. I don't think he actually believes Elena can cure his blood addiction for him. Let me rephrase. What I DO think is that he believes she can keep him in the 'human' side of his personality. That as long as she loves him and sticks with him, he will be inspired enough to keep going with his diet and his rules and his justifications. His best chance to not be tempted is to stay with her, because she sees the good in him that he needs to believe he has. So no, Stefan doesn't think she can cure him of being a vampire (with a serious problem). But he thinks she can help him forget, for the most part. Which is why, once he slips, he thinks he can have nothing to do with her - because this whole illusion of normalcy was so tenuously balanced, and once one thing falls out of place he thinks the entire thing will fall apart.

To be honest, I'm a little confused about the blood-drinking plotline in S2. Where was that going? Yes, we had a moment reminding us that Elena will support Stefan, no matter what. But then what? It never really got mentioned again, and we never saw Stefan dealing with the tolerance build-up, and what was the point? I just don't get it.

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Actually I like to use this s2 loophole to interpret some s3 things ;). Because if Stefan was drinking blood all the time (and in 2x21, when he gets stabbed by Damon, he drains the whole bag), then this whole "omg, he drinks blood and it makes him the Ripper" is just plain bullshit. Stefan is responsible for everything he does in s3.

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Agreed, Elena does no wrong in S1 re: Stefan. Stefan is the dude who stalked, lied and manipulated her for months. BAD STEFAN, NO COOKIE. Yeesh. I appreciate the deconstruction this season, but I will never enjoy how they began.

I'm with

upupa_epops about The Power of Love though--it's not that Stefan truly believes in it, but he allows himself to go along with it, because Elena's (naive) faith in him is so incredible and wonderful to him. I love their last scene in Blood Brothers right up until the end when Stefan decides not to off himself after all just b/c Elena gave him a pep talk, AND THEN HE'S CURED JUST LIKE THAT. Um. NO. That is not how addiction works. Thank Jesus the writers were actually aware of that after all.

DAMON/ELENA IS ALL ABOUT DARK ROOMS. It's fine. It's good.

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AND NONE FOR STEFAN SALVATORE, BYE.

I tried to clarify what I meant about TPoL above - it's not that Stefan actually believes Elena can rid him of his addiction problems, it's that he thinks she can keep him from succumbing to temptation. She lets him subscribe to the doctrine of self-denial because she doesn't know any better, so he thinks that as long as he has her to allow him to think he's human, he can hold out against his darker urges. He completely relies on her to keep him on program, basically. He entangles everything he wants to be in Elena's love for him, effectively making it her responsibility. He wants to be what he's made her think he is. He knows, deep down, that it does't work like that, but he HOPES he can believe it does for as long as possible (and now that his construction has collapsed, he has no idea how to get back from his downward spiral. He can't bear to drag himself back to the man he wants to be, because he's never had to do it himself before, and he doesn't know who to rely on now. I vote Katherine, because that would be awesome - and it wouldn't really work, and that would be even more awesome.).

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He entangles everything he wants to be in Elena's love for him, effectively making it her responsibility.

THIS. That's the problem with the Salvatore boys and Elena. She tends to take too much responsibility, and Stefan and Damon don't exactly oppose. Soon there might be too much on her shoulders.

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