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semeleI'm terribly late with fics for the meme, but I have this awkward feeling that if I was late with the meta, my head would roll (I'm looking at you, Frances), so here I am. The post is freakishly long, which may or may not imply that I have no life. I regret nothing. The banner was made for me by ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
juana_a for another Damon/Elena meta, and I'm shamelessly recycling. The title comes from Richard Siken's “Litany in Which Certain Things Are Crossed Out”. The screencaps I'm using belong to ladymanson. The thoughts, I'm afraid, are mine.
Banner made byjuana_a. Quote from "Little Lion Man" by Mumford And Sons.
My first instinct was to write this meta chronologically. Just describe step by step how this relationship was developing, and end with a big speculation paragraph explaining how, obviously, my idea for future Damon/Elena is the only acceptable idea ;). But then: I've read metas like that. They were damn good metas. I might have two or three new things to add, but not enough to make this post worth reading for anyone who is at least remotely interested in the ship; we've been through the whole “Damon tries to seduce her to mess with Stefan => she shows compassion => Georgia => Katherine not in the tomb etc” thing, haven't we? So that's not how this meta is going to work. Screw chronology. Let's talk about themes.
Warnings: This is a Damon/Elena meta prompted byever_neutral for my December Meme of Doom. No functional relationships will be found in this post. No shipwars will be found in this post. Not enough graphics will be found in this post, because I have no Photoshop skills :(. All the romantic delusions that can be found in this post belong solely to Damon. Oh, and there are spoilers up to TVD 3x09.
Love Always Wakes the Dragon
A Big Damn Damon/Elena Meta
1. Do you trust me?
I often hear that Damon and Elena have quite an awkward friendship, because, if it wasn't for Stefan, they wouldn't really have anything to talk about. It's true... to some extent.
Elena: I think I got Rebekah on our side, too.
Damon: Really? What'd you learn from her?
Elena: I learned that she's just a girl, then she lost her mom too young, and she loves blindly and recklessly, even if it consumes her.
TVD 3x08, Ordinary People
When Elena talks about Rebekah, it's clear that she's thinking about herself, but then the camera goes to Damon, and guess what? Damon, even though he might've read Elena's intentions correctly, is also thinking about himself.
Of course communication is important in friendships, but in this friendship? Not so much. They don't have communication, because they have an understanding. They can't talk about stuff, because their relationship is based on sharing things they don't talk about. Damon, for Elena, is about how she thinks that she's one of the monsters. Elena, for Damon, is about how he thinks that he's still more human than anybody would think he might be.
Hence their awkward conversations about trust. Because, logically, Elena just can't trust Damon in 3x09. Asgoldy_dollar pointed out to me, he's broken her trust so many times it would be stupid for her to trust him. And yet she does, and it's not stupid. It's just that, at this point, Damon is predictable for Elena (or at least this is how she feels about him; there are things that the viewer knows and Elena doesn't, and they shed a different light on the matters between Damon and Elena). She knows when he might go behind her back. She knows when he may snap. She knows she has some emotional power over him. Elena's trust isn't based on Damon's good intentions, it's based on her knowledge of what he might actually do.
I don't deny it, it is a weird friendship, but then Damon and Elena aren't the healthiest people on this planet, and the fact that their friendship is twisted doesn't make it any less real.
2. Damon is discomfort. Damon is comfort.
Now, Elena's attitude towards Damon can be played on two levels: psychological and metaphorical. Let's be nerds and start with the latter.
Elena is the central part of a triangle - and I'm not talking about a love triangle. As much as I'd love it, there is no actual threesome, at least not yet. But there is a sort of a “narrative triangle” working, and, since it's so important in the structure of the show, I think it should be the context to read Elena.
Of course there are other interpretations possible, and there is more to Stefan and Damon than I'm about to do with them, but let's just accept this reading for the sake of the argument, because I believe it provides us with an interesting angle on Elena's attitude towards Damon.
Let's assume that the Salvatores aren't characters on their own behalf - they are just symbols of two sides of Elena's personality.
Of course it starts out as a binary opposition, because it's TVD, and they enjoy setting up binary oppositions (mostly in order to screw with them until there's nothing left). So Stefan is functional when Damon is dysfunctional, Stefan is reasonable when Damon is impulsive, Stefan is kind when Damon is passionate, Stefan is altruistic when Damon is selfish, Stefan is under control when Damon is wild. And Elena doesn't want to be Damon. Of course she actually IS Damon (see: section 1), and she doesn't try to deny it (they have an understanding), but she is not comfortable about it, and, as long as Stefan keeps up being the good brother, Elena finds it in herself to keep in check this “other” part of her personality, and this results in her being constantly uncomfortable around Damon. But as soon as Stefan starts slipping up, the symbolics of Damon collapses as well (the brothers only work as symbols when they're juxtaposed). So we can have Elena being visibly embarassed when she meets shirtless, drunk Damon in 1x15 A Few Good Men, but sitting comfortably with her legs on his lap in 1x20 Blood Brothers. It could've been two weeks tops for her, and yet she's moved so far for no good reason. Well, there is a reason: Damon can only work as a metaphorical source of discomfort when Stefan is working as a metaphorical source of comfort.
In s3 the game changes.
It's not Stefan vs Damon any more. Is memory of Stefan vs Damon, and the beauty of memories is that they don't let us down. Elena talks herself into believing that Stefan had some sort of personality transplant and he is not “the real Stefan”, so whatever he does, cannot break her dychotomy of safety. It breaks on its own accord, because Elena is getting darker and darker, and she can't really play it the safe way, not any more. It happens gradually: she gives up on looking for Stefan in 3x03, she is victimized by him in 3x05, she stabs him in 3x06, she witnesses the horrors of “Lexi Detox” in 3x07. The bed scene from 3x08 has a surprising parallel in 3x09 — Elena stabs Rebekah in the back. Those two scenes seem completely different, and yet they're essentially the same; it's Elena acknowledging her dark side, first metaphorically (by letting Damon stay in her bed and showing how comfortable she is with it), then literally (by doing something ruthless).
We could say that for the first two seasons Elena was othering the darker aspects of her personality by othering Damon, and once she had to embrace her darker side in order to survive all the horrors of early s3, she stopped othering Damon, because it just lost any sense to her.
Now, the psychological interpretation is much more down-to-Earth.
I believe we've been talking about it withever_neutral: Elena's attitude towards Damon is somehow a reflection of her attitude towards her own sexuality, and I'm not talking about fancy metaphores. Damon is an attractive man, and Elena does find him attractive (see: Caroline calling her out on it in 3x04), but at the same time this is a forbidden attraction, because, essentially, Elena believes that she shouldn't bone a hot guy she doesn't love. This is one of her rules, and yet Damon keeps the interactions between them sexualized on some level (innuendos, “accidental” touch, flashing, opening her underwear drawer etc). He is provocative and abusive, and there is nothing attractive about that, but there is still something attractive about HIM, and Elena is constantly uncomfortable around him, because she doesn't want this attraction. She wouldn't go for it, she doesn't want to have sex with Damon, but she can feel this attraction on a very physical level, and she acts out by constantly showing him how uncomfortable she is.
In s3 everything gets at least a bit blurry, and, after seeing so many horrors and crossing so many lines, the unwanted, inappropriate attraction doesn't seem so bad. It's still unwanted, and Elena still wouldn't have sex with Damon, but now she has things that bother her much more, so she doesn't feel the need to express her discomfort the way she used to. She needs Damon as an ally, and his friendship is important for her. The “comfort” factor outweights the “discomfort” factor. It doesn't mean that the discomfort disappears, or that it lessens; it doesn't, there are just other things, not connected to sexuality, that make her react more positively.
3. She looks like Katherine
There is one very important thing about Damon/Elena that is rarely discussed in fandom — Damon isn't over Katherine.
Let's not get into some simplified, lazy interpretation here: we are not talking about rebound girls, and we certainly are not engaging into a shipwar. There will be no “whose love is more true”. We are just noticing a few simple facts. It's not about Damon not being able to tell the difference between Elena and Katherine. He knows they are two separate beings (he just gets fooled when Katherine wants to fool him, and it's not like he is the only one). Damon isn't over Katherine. Damon really is into Elena. Damon loves them both. Damon used to be this boy full of romantic delusions, and when he was turned into a vampire, it all got magnified. Damon loves the idea of being in love.
This kind of relationship is usually harmful to the loved rather than the loving, but here it goes another way round. Damon doesn't try to shape Elena to fit the image he has in his head, because this image has nothing to do with her; it's ultimately selfish. Damon just wants a person to love, and he will take anything he can get. Elena is good and sweet? Fine with him. Elena is getting more and more like Katherine? Fine with him. Katherine did some unspeakable things to him, and he still loves her, so I can't imagine what Elena would have to do for Damon to think she went too far. Probably set him on fire. Although even that might not help.
This kind of unconditional love is incredible and terrible at the same time. Damon has no standards, Damon has no expectations; he will embrace everything that's worst about Elena, and he will do it happily. He loves her blindly, and it has every potential to destroy him. It's also a bit destructive for Elena, because when she starts spiriling down (or has she already started?), Damon will be the first to notice, but he will not react in a way a friend would. He will follow her when Caroline, Bonnie or Alaric would try to support her. It's not about saving Elena; it's about a healthy friendship. The understanding and acceptance Damon has for Elena may be amazing and liberating for her, but there also is a dark side to it. As the story with Katherine shows, Damon takes things to the extreme, and that never ends well.
4. Be the Better Man
Elena, on the other hand, is full of expectations, and I'll try to be brief about it, because this topic is widely discussed. Basically the point is that, as the show goes, Elena develops a habit of using her emotional power over Damon in order to blackmail him into being the better man. Let me remind you one s2 scene:
Elena: Please don't do anything stupid.
Damon: Yeah, but stupid is so much more fun.
Elena: Damon, I mean it. All I'm asking is you try to keep it together. Be the better man.
Damon: Ok, then.
TVD 2x13, Daddy Issues
She isn't even trying to be subtle about it. If Damon wants to be in her life, he needs to obey certain rules. It makes sense, to some extent; Damon is an unstable, psychotic vampire, and Elena shows some good judgement by being afraid of what he might do. But, at the same time, having so much emotional power over someone is destructive for her, especially since Damon stops standing up to her (he acted out in 3x04, and that would be it; when he came back after that, he told her he would never leave her). Elena can keep Damon in check, but there is a price; their relationship cannot be equal, because Damon has lost most of his power (see: section 2; even when he was obeying her, he used to be able to intimidate Elena by using his sexuality, and after 3x08 he lost this kind of power over her). Elena is flawed, because she is human, and having that much power wouldn't be healthy for anyone. Damon is submissive. He gives in. Elena has manipulative tendencies. This is not a good combination.
What I'm trying to show is that the best things about Damon/Elena (Damon's unconditional love, Elena's capability of making Damon the better man) are at the same time the worst things about them; everything awesome in this ship has a darker side, an understanding can turn into abuse for both of them, there is a history of crossing the line and causing pain on both sides. Of course we could argue who is more guilty, and we could try to count who is more harmful, but this is a relationship, not a tennis match. It's a wonderful relationship, and it's a terrible relationship at the same time. It's both harmful and helpful, productive and destructive, supportive and abusive. You can't bring out the best without bringing out the worst. Elena tells Damon she believes in him, and he murders someone, because he can't bear Elena's faith. Damon loves Elena so much he force-feeds her his blood, and I doubt she will ever forgive him. When Elena stabs Rebekah, it's Damon who helps her hide the body. This is why I love this ship so much. The good and the bad are so tangled together it's impossible to make heads or tails out of it, and every time you stir it, you get a slightly different shade of gray. Love always wakes the dragon.
5. Oh my God, are you twelve?
Let's take a minute to talk about the ultimate idiot ship. It's gonna be epic.
Damon: How you doing?
Elena: Um, freaking out a bit. You?
Damon: Cool as a cucumber. Come on, remember the last decade dance? The vampires were all, "ahh!" And you were all, "aahh!"
Elena: Right. And we won.
Damon: Yes! We did .
TVD 2x18, The Last Dance
The silliness seems a little gratuitious, and yet it's hard to have a full image of what Damon/Elena is without taking it into account. Silliness, for them, is the way to avoid talking about things they don't want to talk about. Sometimes they use it just for fun, but mostly it's a shield: something they do not to expose themselves too much, and something they use to wield power over each other. Look at the way Damon uses his sexuality here (again, those thoughts are the result of a discussion withever_neutral): he behaves like an idiot, that's true, but at the same time he tries to intimidate Elena with his body. He tries to throw her off balance, up to the point when he actually pushes her into a stream, and then confronts her about the kiss they shared in 2x22 in such a childish way the viewer can't help but wonder what's wrong with this guy.
The idiocy is supposed to help with self-confidence, it replaces the actual communication, it is communication itself. Damon and Elena don't exactly develop a habit of openly sharing their feelings with each other. Poking fun is safer.
6. Neither of us is broken enough to talk about it.
Let's sum it all up with some speculation. So far this entire post was about what Damon/Elena is, about power, friendship, and abuse, and sexual tension, and now it's time to talk about what it's not, what it would or wouldn't be in the future, and what it should never become. In short: let's speculate about Damon/Elena as a sexual/romantic relationship.
Damon/Elena will not happen any time soon, and it shouldn't. Just look at Elena. A girl needs to be far more screwed up than she is to know exactly what Damon is and still have sex with him. He is insane, and abusive, and uncontrolable, and have I mentioned batshit crazy? Sexual tension or not, nothing like that is going to happen now. Right now Elena is attracted to Damon, but she would never let anything go further. Come on, haven't you ever had a crush on a guy you totally shouldn't? A guy you'd never sleep with, because he is just so WRONG, but hey, he is hot and a girl has eyes? There is a difference between feeling sexual attraction and actually wanting to have sex with someone.
Damon/Elena may be a happy relationship, to some extent, but it'll never be a healthy relationship, because the “understanding” they have goes too deep under their skin. Each of them associates the other with the aspect of the self they are othering (bad pun is bad). It's not about destiny or undying love. Those are the symbols they made up in their own heads; they GAVE each other so much significance, and now they're stuck with it, because they need each other, on a very basic level: they have something supernatural going after them all the time (or they're dumb enough to go after somethins supernatural), and neither of them could survive this alone. They might comfort each other, they might find solace in what they have, but a healthy, balanced and funcional relationship is out of the question without some major personality transplants.
Damon/Elena would be romantic. Because Damon is a performer, and he was brought up in the 19th century, with certain set of symbols and prejudices that got kicked into his head. For him, love is worship. This True, Real, Human Love he used to dream about as a boy. So yes, he would pull all the classic, cheesy tricks from bad novels, but that's it. An act. Elena might let it go for a short while, but if she doesn't put a stop on this show, then Damon definitely will, because that' not the only performance he needs to carry out.
Damon/Elena would be harsh, maybe even abusive. Because Damon is a part of a circle of abuse that doesn't break overnight, because Elena is getting manipulative and ruthless, and they are both under circumstances that will probably bring out the worst in them. Because they are both selfish. Because they are both angry. Because, despite the fact that they aviod communicating, they expose themselves (look at Damon in 3x09; we've seen him having angry outbursts like that before, but we've never seen him having them in front of other people) and they are honest , and when people like that are honest, ugly things come to the surface. Because she can be dark with him, and he can be vulnerable with her, but neither is noble or fair enough to do it without collateral damage.
Damon/Elena would be friendly. Help-you-move-the-body, could-call-you-in-the-middle-of-a-night, I-will-never-leave-you kind of friendly. They are a team. They share things they would never share with anyone else. If they weren't so fucked up, they could probably take over the world. They could never not be fucked up.
Damon/Elena is not a ship that would have exceptionally good sex. They'd have angry sex and comfort sex, clumsy sex and drunk sex, selfish sex and sex that fulfills their deepest fantasies, tender sex and rough sex, real emotions and performance, understanding and othering. What they have is not about being sex gods. It could get ugly, and not in a hot way.
Damon/Elena is a terrible thing to ship.
And, finally, some recs. Because I actually, you know, treated this meta seriously, so I've been reading things, and talking to people.
— There were two amazing Damon/Elena discussions on my own journal; they just came out of nowhere and consumed a few days of my life. They're both pretty chaotic, but if anyone is interested, it's scattered around those posts: click click.
—ever_neutral wrote an incredible Damon/Elena meta after s2: All You've Done is Give Up. When I was writing my post, I was trying very hard not to mention things covered by Alex, because why would I copy-paste?
—laniaaa wrote an awesome meta explaining why she ships Damon/Elena and how Damon is a horrible person: very big, very long discussion on why i ship my otp, and why i sometimes hate it .
If you have some more D/E discussion or meta recs, please do tell :).
juana_a for another Damon/Elena meta, and I'm shamelessly recycling. The title comes from Richard Siken's “Litany in Which Certain Things Are Crossed Out”. The screencaps I'm using belong to ladymanson. The thoughts, I'm afraid, are mine.Banner made by
juana_a. Quote from "Little Lion Man" by Mumford And Sons.My first instinct was to write this meta chronologically. Just describe step by step how this relationship was developing, and end with a big speculation paragraph explaining how, obviously, my idea for future Damon/Elena is the only acceptable idea ;). But then: I've read metas like that. They were damn good metas. I might have two or three new things to add, but not enough to make this post worth reading for anyone who is at least remotely interested in the ship; we've been through the whole “Damon tries to seduce her to mess with Stefan => she shows compassion => Georgia => Katherine not in the tomb etc” thing, haven't we? So that's not how this meta is going to work. Screw chronology. Let's talk about themes.
Warnings: This is a Damon/Elena meta prompted by
ever_neutral for my December Meme of Doom. No functional relationships will be found in this post. No shipwars will be found in this post. Not enough graphics will be found in this post, because I have no Photoshop skills :(. All the romantic delusions that can be found in this post belong solely to Damon. Oh, and there are spoilers up to TVD 3x09.A Big Damn Damon/Elena Meta
1. Do you trust me?
I often hear that Damon and Elena have quite an awkward friendship, because, if it wasn't for Stefan, they wouldn't really have anything to talk about. It's true... to some extent.
Elena: I think I got Rebekah on our side, too.
Damon: Really? What'd you learn from her?
Elena: I learned that she's just a girl, then she lost her mom too young, and she loves blindly and recklessly, even if it consumes her.
TVD 3x08, Ordinary People
When Elena talks about Rebekah, it's clear that she's thinking about herself, but then the camera goes to Damon, and guess what? Damon, even though he might've read Elena's intentions correctly, is also thinking about himself.
Of course communication is important in friendships, but in this friendship? Not so much. They don't have communication, because they have an understanding. They can't talk about stuff, because their relationship is based on sharing things they don't talk about. Damon, for Elena, is about how she thinks that she's one of the monsters. Elena, for Damon, is about how he thinks that he's still more human than anybody would think he might be.
Hence their awkward conversations about trust. Because, logically, Elena just can't trust Damon in 3x09. As
goldy_dollar pointed out to me, he's broken her trust so many times it would be stupid for her to trust him. And yet she does, and it's not stupid. It's just that, at this point, Damon is predictable for Elena (or at least this is how she feels about him; there are things that the viewer knows and Elena doesn't, and they shed a different light on the matters between Damon and Elena). She knows when he might go behind her back. She knows when he may snap. She knows she has some emotional power over him. Elena's trust isn't based on Damon's good intentions, it's based on her knowledge of what he might actually do.I don't deny it, it is a weird friendship, but then Damon and Elena aren't the healthiest people on this planet, and the fact that their friendship is twisted doesn't make it any less real.
2. Damon is discomfort. Damon is comfort.
Now, Elena's attitude towards Damon can be played on two levels: psychological and metaphorical. Let's be nerds and start with the latter.
Elena is the central part of a triangle - and I'm not talking about a love triangle. As much as I'd love it, there is no actual threesome, at least not yet. But there is a sort of a “narrative triangle” working, and, since it's so important in the structure of the show, I think it should be the context to read Elena.
Of course there are other interpretations possible, and there is more to Stefan and Damon than I'm about to do with them, but let's just accept this reading for the sake of the argument, because I believe it provides us with an interesting angle on Elena's attitude towards Damon.
Let's assume that the Salvatores aren't characters on their own behalf - they are just symbols of two sides of Elena's personality.
Of course it starts out as a binary opposition, because it's TVD, and they enjoy setting up binary oppositions (mostly in order to screw with them until there's nothing left). So Stefan is functional when Damon is dysfunctional, Stefan is reasonable when Damon is impulsive, Stefan is kind when Damon is passionate, Stefan is altruistic when Damon is selfish, Stefan is under control when Damon is wild. And Elena doesn't want to be Damon. Of course she actually IS Damon (see: section 1), and she doesn't try to deny it (they have an understanding), but she is not comfortable about it, and, as long as Stefan keeps up being the good brother, Elena finds it in herself to keep in check this “other” part of her personality, and this results in her being constantly uncomfortable around Damon. But as soon as Stefan starts slipping up, the symbolics of Damon collapses as well (the brothers only work as symbols when they're juxtaposed). So we can have Elena being visibly embarassed when she meets shirtless, drunk Damon in 1x15 A Few Good Men, but sitting comfortably with her legs on his lap in 1x20 Blood Brothers. It could've been two weeks tops for her, and yet she's moved so far for no good reason. Well, there is a reason: Damon can only work as a metaphorical source of discomfort when Stefan is working as a metaphorical source of comfort.
In s3 the game changes.
It's not Stefan vs Damon any more. Is memory of Stefan vs Damon, and the beauty of memories is that they don't let us down. Elena talks herself into believing that Stefan had some sort of personality transplant and he is not “the real Stefan”, so whatever he does, cannot break her dychotomy of safety. It breaks on its own accord, because Elena is getting darker and darker, and she can't really play it the safe way, not any more. It happens gradually: she gives up on looking for Stefan in 3x03, she is victimized by him in 3x05, she stabs him in 3x06, she witnesses the horrors of “Lexi Detox” in 3x07. The bed scene from 3x08 has a surprising parallel in 3x09 — Elena stabs Rebekah in the back. Those two scenes seem completely different, and yet they're essentially the same; it's Elena acknowledging her dark side, first metaphorically (by letting Damon stay in her bed and showing how comfortable she is with it), then literally (by doing something ruthless).
We could say that for the first two seasons Elena was othering the darker aspects of her personality by othering Damon, and once she had to embrace her darker side in order to survive all the horrors of early s3, she stopped othering Damon, because it just lost any sense to her.
Now, the psychological interpretation is much more down-to-Earth.
I believe we've been talking about it with
ever_neutral: Elena's attitude towards Damon is somehow a reflection of her attitude towards her own sexuality, and I'm not talking about fancy metaphores. Damon is an attractive man, and Elena does find him attractive (see: Caroline calling her out on it in 3x04), but at the same time this is a forbidden attraction, because, essentially, Elena believes that she shouldn't bone a hot guy she doesn't love. This is one of her rules, and yet Damon keeps the interactions between them sexualized on some level (innuendos, “accidental” touch, flashing, opening her underwear drawer etc). He is provocative and abusive, and there is nothing attractive about that, but there is still something attractive about HIM, and Elena is constantly uncomfortable around him, because she doesn't want this attraction. She wouldn't go for it, she doesn't want to have sex with Damon, but she can feel this attraction on a very physical level, and she acts out by constantly showing him how uncomfortable she is.In s3 everything gets at least a bit blurry, and, after seeing so many horrors and crossing so many lines, the unwanted, inappropriate attraction doesn't seem so bad. It's still unwanted, and Elena still wouldn't have sex with Damon, but now she has things that bother her much more, so she doesn't feel the need to express her discomfort the way she used to. She needs Damon as an ally, and his friendship is important for her. The “comfort” factor outweights the “discomfort” factor. It doesn't mean that the discomfort disappears, or that it lessens; it doesn't, there are just other things, not connected to sexuality, that make her react more positively.
3. She looks like Katherine
There is one very important thing about Damon/Elena that is rarely discussed in fandom — Damon isn't over Katherine.
Let's not get into some simplified, lazy interpretation here: we are not talking about rebound girls, and we certainly are not engaging into a shipwar. There will be no “whose love is more true”. We are just noticing a few simple facts. It's not about Damon not being able to tell the difference between Elena and Katherine. He knows they are two separate beings (he just gets fooled when Katherine wants to fool him, and it's not like he is the only one). Damon isn't over Katherine. Damon really is into Elena. Damon loves them both. Damon used to be this boy full of romantic delusions, and when he was turned into a vampire, it all got magnified. Damon loves the idea of being in love.
This kind of relationship is usually harmful to the loved rather than the loving, but here it goes another way round. Damon doesn't try to shape Elena to fit the image he has in his head, because this image has nothing to do with her; it's ultimately selfish. Damon just wants a person to love, and he will take anything he can get. Elena is good and sweet? Fine with him. Elena is getting more and more like Katherine? Fine with him. Katherine did some unspeakable things to him, and he still loves her, so I can't imagine what Elena would have to do for Damon to think she went too far. Probably set him on fire. Although even that might not help.
This kind of unconditional love is incredible and terrible at the same time. Damon has no standards, Damon has no expectations; he will embrace everything that's worst about Elena, and he will do it happily. He loves her blindly, and it has every potential to destroy him. It's also a bit destructive for Elena, because when she starts spiriling down (or has she already started?), Damon will be the first to notice, but he will not react in a way a friend would. He will follow her when Caroline, Bonnie or Alaric would try to support her. It's not about saving Elena; it's about a healthy friendship. The understanding and acceptance Damon has for Elena may be amazing and liberating for her, but there also is a dark side to it. As the story with Katherine shows, Damon takes things to the extreme, and that never ends well.
4. Be the Better Man
Elena, on the other hand, is full of expectations, and I'll try to be brief about it, because this topic is widely discussed. Basically the point is that, as the show goes, Elena develops a habit of using her emotional power over Damon in order to blackmail him into being the better man. Let me remind you one s2 scene:
Elena: Please don't do anything stupid.
Damon: Yeah, but stupid is so much more fun.
Elena: Damon, I mean it. All I'm asking is you try to keep it together. Be the better man.
Damon: Ok, then.
TVD 2x13, Daddy Issues
She isn't even trying to be subtle about it. If Damon wants to be in her life, he needs to obey certain rules. It makes sense, to some extent; Damon is an unstable, psychotic vampire, and Elena shows some good judgement by being afraid of what he might do. But, at the same time, having so much emotional power over someone is destructive for her, especially since Damon stops standing up to her (he acted out in 3x04, and that would be it; when he came back after that, he told her he would never leave her). Elena can keep Damon in check, but there is a price; their relationship cannot be equal, because Damon has lost most of his power (see: section 2; even when he was obeying her, he used to be able to intimidate Elena by using his sexuality, and after 3x08 he lost this kind of power over her). Elena is flawed, because she is human, and having that much power wouldn't be healthy for anyone. Damon is submissive. He gives in. Elena has manipulative tendencies. This is not a good combination.
What I'm trying to show is that the best things about Damon/Elena (Damon's unconditional love, Elena's capability of making Damon the better man) are at the same time the worst things about them; everything awesome in this ship has a darker side, an understanding can turn into abuse for both of them, there is a history of crossing the line and causing pain on both sides. Of course we could argue who is more guilty, and we could try to count who is more harmful, but this is a relationship, not a tennis match. It's a wonderful relationship, and it's a terrible relationship at the same time. It's both harmful and helpful, productive and destructive, supportive and abusive. You can't bring out the best without bringing out the worst. Elena tells Damon she believes in him, and he murders someone, because he can't bear Elena's faith. Damon loves Elena so much he force-feeds her his blood, and I doubt she will ever forgive him. When Elena stabs Rebekah, it's Damon who helps her hide the body. This is why I love this ship so much. The good and the bad are so tangled together it's impossible to make heads or tails out of it, and every time you stir it, you get a slightly different shade of gray. Love always wakes the dragon.
5. Oh my God, are you twelve?
Let's take a minute to talk about the ultimate idiot ship. It's gonna be epic.
Damon: How you doing?
Elena: Um, freaking out a bit. You?
Damon: Cool as a cucumber. Come on, remember the last decade dance? The vampires were all, "ahh!" And you were all, "aahh!"
Elena: Right. And we won.
Damon: Yes! We did .
TVD 2x18, The Last Dance
The silliness seems a little gratuitious, and yet it's hard to have a full image of what Damon/Elena is without taking it into account. Silliness, for them, is the way to avoid talking about things they don't want to talk about. Sometimes they use it just for fun, but mostly it's a shield: something they do not to expose themselves too much, and something they use to wield power over each other. Look at the way Damon uses his sexuality here (again, those thoughts are the result of a discussion with
ever_neutral): he behaves like an idiot, that's true, but at the same time he tries to intimidate Elena with his body. He tries to throw her off balance, up to the point when he actually pushes her into a stream, and then confronts her about the kiss they shared in 2x22 in such a childish way the viewer can't help but wonder what's wrong with this guy. The idiocy is supposed to help with self-confidence, it replaces the actual communication, it is communication itself. Damon and Elena don't exactly develop a habit of openly sharing their feelings with each other. Poking fun is safer.
6. Neither of us is broken enough to talk about it.
Let's sum it all up with some speculation. So far this entire post was about what Damon/Elena is, about power, friendship, and abuse, and sexual tension, and now it's time to talk about what it's not, what it would or wouldn't be in the future, and what it should never become. In short: let's speculate about Damon/Elena as a sexual/romantic relationship.
Damon/Elena will not happen any time soon, and it shouldn't. Just look at Elena. A girl needs to be far more screwed up than she is to know exactly what Damon is and still have sex with him. He is insane, and abusive, and uncontrolable, and have I mentioned batshit crazy? Sexual tension or not, nothing like that is going to happen now. Right now Elena is attracted to Damon, but she would never let anything go further. Come on, haven't you ever had a crush on a guy you totally shouldn't? A guy you'd never sleep with, because he is just so WRONG, but hey, he is hot and a girl has eyes? There is a difference between feeling sexual attraction and actually wanting to have sex with someone.
Damon/Elena may be a happy relationship, to some extent, but it'll never be a healthy relationship, because the “understanding” they have goes too deep under their skin. Each of them associates the other with the aspect of the self they are othering (bad pun is bad). It's not about destiny or undying love. Those are the symbols they made up in their own heads; they GAVE each other so much significance, and now they're stuck with it, because they need each other, on a very basic level: they have something supernatural going after them all the time (or they're dumb enough to go after somethins supernatural), and neither of them could survive this alone. They might comfort each other, they might find solace in what they have, but a healthy, balanced and funcional relationship is out of the question without some major personality transplants.
Damon/Elena would be romantic. Because Damon is a performer, and he was brought up in the 19th century, with certain set of symbols and prejudices that got kicked into his head. For him, love is worship. This True, Real, Human Love he used to dream about as a boy. So yes, he would pull all the classic, cheesy tricks from bad novels, but that's it. An act. Elena might let it go for a short while, but if she doesn't put a stop on this show, then Damon definitely will, because that' not the only performance he needs to carry out.
Damon/Elena would be harsh, maybe even abusive. Because Damon is a part of a circle of abuse that doesn't break overnight, because Elena is getting manipulative and ruthless, and they are both under circumstances that will probably bring out the worst in them. Because they are both selfish. Because they are both angry. Because, despite the fact that they aviod communicating, they expose themselves (look at Damon in 3x09; we've seen him having angry outbursts like that before, but we've never seen him having them in front of other people) and they are honest , and when people like that are honest, ugly things come to the surface. Because she can be dark with him, and he can be vulnerable with her, but neither is noble or fair enough to do it without collateral damage.
Damon/Elena would be friendly. Help-you-move-the-body, could-call-you-in-the-middle-of-a-night, I-will-never-leave-you kind of friendly. They are a team. They share things they would never share with anyone else. If they weren't so fucked up, they could probably take over the world. They could never not be fucked up.
Damon/Elena is not a ship that would have exceptionally good sex. They'd have angry sex and comfort sex, clumsy sex and drunk sex, selfish sex and sex that fulfills their deepest fantasies, tender sex and rough sex, real emotions and performance, understanding and othering. What they have is not about being sex gods. It could get ugly, and not in a hot way.
Damon/Elena is a terrible thing to ship.
And, finally, some recs. Because I actually, you know, treated this meta seriously, so I've been reading things, and talking to people.
— There were two amazing Damon/Elena discussions on my own journal; they just came out of nowhere and consumed a few days of my life. They're both pretty chaotic, but if anyone is interested, it's scattered around those posts: click click.
—
ever_neutral wrote an incredible Damon/Elena meta after s2: All You've Done is Give Up. When I was writing my post, I was trying very hard not to mention things covered by Alex, because why would I copy-paste?—
laniaaa wrote an awesome meta explaining why she ships Damon/Elena and how Damon is a horrible person: very big, very long discussion on why i ship my otp, and why i sometimes hate it .If you have some more D/E discussion or meta recs, please do tell :).
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO
Date: 2011-12-13 08:27 pm (UTC)When there is constant mocking, there is constant questioning. When there is constant questioning, there is constant change. When there is constant change, THEY HAVE ME FOREVER!
I'm so amused/irritated by the way fandom responds to Elena's attraction to Damon.
Once I said something about Elena being obviously attracted to Damon, and I got accused of all the standard things D/E shippers get accused of from time to time. So now I thought I'd be careful and write a Paragraph That States The Obvious, because, apparently, it's necessary if I want to avoid misunderstandings...
Right now it doesn't seem to me that Elena has any intention of going there with Damon, but I can't truly predict anything on this show, lol.
I think Elena will go there with Damon, but it's a speculation based on the plot structure, not on Elena as a character. There's just been too much foreshadowing.
I can't even, I just love the idea of two people who just cannot make it work, but they are stuck with each other because whatever is between them is bigger than them. With Damon and Elena--they can't be together because they're too volatile, but they can't truly stay away from each other because THEY KEEP COMING BACK, it's inevitable, and outrunning the inevitable is exhausting, and they can't lose the one person in the world who truly ~understands them. What they have is something that exists against (and in the absence of) hope, or happiness, or redemption. And man, if that does not hit all my fictional kinks, I don't know what does.
I NEED THIS PARAGRAPH IN SOLID GOLD, AND THEN I NEED ALL THE D/E FICS TO WORK ACCORDING TO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAN YOU PLEASE MAKE THAT HAPPEN? #too many emotions
It inspires me to get back to my top ten D/E scenes list that I've been secretly working on behind a curtain. Maybe I'll actually get it done before the show comes back.
I NEED THIS TO HAPPEN! I want your top ten!!! I'm going to figure out my own top ten list, and I'm not even going to post them or describe them, I'll just write them down and see if we make similar choices.
TALK TO ME SOME MORE I WISH TO TALK.
I shall oblige!
I WANT ALL THE RECS! I NEED YOUR RECS LIKE I NEED AIR!
Thank you for your comment \o/. LET'S OVERINTERPRET TEEN VAMPIRE SHOWS SOME MORE!!!
Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO
Date: 2011-12-14 02:10 am (UTC)YES. MOVEMENT~ If there's just one reason I ship these two, it's because they force each other to develop, as characters, as concepts. All the messed-up things inherent in their relationship... JUST A BONUS, LOL.
Once I said something about Elena being obviously attracted to Damon, and I got accused of all the standard things D/E shippers get accused of from time to time.
Bahahaha… Um. I think I saw that conversation play out, actually. It was after the mid-season finale, right? Because if that's the instance I'm thinking of, then… yeah.
I think Elena will go there with Damon, but it's a speculation based on the plot structure, not on Elena as a character.
Yeah. Right. I see a lot of people freaking out/getting excited about D/E possibly happening ~soon. This all tends to go over my head a bit, because I'm just not seeing it. There have been a lot of ANVILICIOUS ANVILS about the passion~ they can no longer deny, but so what? They are red herrings. It's not {THE ACTUAL STORY}. Don't pay attention to the outermost layer; pay attention to the story. Because the structure is telling us clearly that it's still too soon.
I NEED THIS PARAGRAPH IN SOLID GOLD, AND THEN I NEED ALL THE D/E FICS TO WORK ACCORDING TO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAN YOU PLEASE MAKE THAT HAPPEN? #too many emotions
Marta, just
WORKING ON MY TOP TEN AS WE SPEAK. I shall refer back to this post for sure. (Also hold up, I am gathering recs for you in a separate comment.)
D/E VID REC TIME MUAHAHAHAHA
Date: 2011-12-14 04:59 am (UTC)02. How can i be sure the safety of your arms? ELENA POV VIDS ARE MY CRACK. and goddamn, the song choice. how can i be sure the safety of your arms doesn't suffocate me? TELL ME IT IS NOT PERFECT.
03. Twin Flames. d/e + parallels IS MY KRYPTONITE. i swear to god, every time i think this fandom and i WILL NEVER BE FRIENDS, i see a vid like this, and think, MAYBE WE CAN BE FRIENDS? SOMETIMES YOU UNDERSTAND MY FEELS? i got to "you did this; this is your fault" and started ugly crying. i am beyond help, marta.
04. I've Seen You In A Fight You Lost. ahhhhhh, so conflicted~ b/c this is my elena/stefan song, but. this be a quality vid. (admittedly, you're not the answer i should know is them with a bullet.)
05. between two points. yeah, no deep thoughts here. IT IS A SEXY VID, END OF STORY.
06. You can't love me. SOMETIMES THIS FANDOM'S MUSIC CHOICES ASTOUND ME. i could build a bridge to my heart and lead the way...//yeah, but you can't love me. i kind of see d/e as this constant battle of "i can't" v.s. "but i do". this vid understands me.
07. Theres something real. AMAZING AMAZING OVERVIEW OF THEIR STORY (up to now!). fucking pitch-perfect, and completely, COMPLETELY true to THEM in canon, which is a rarity in this fandom, tbqh. and: i just want something that makes me feel like--i'm not crazy, there's something real. CREYS ON MY FACE.
08. sail. okay, this is a damon-centric vid that heavily features d/e, and IT IS FUCKING AMAZEBALLS. it covers the whole deconstruction-of-romantic-hero thing that we all like to talk about so much, and it does so with FLAWLESS MUSIC, FLAWLESS QUOTES, FLAWLESS EDITING, FLAWLESS EVERYTHING. this would be one of those rare times where i want to offer my hand in marriage to this fandom.
yeah, okay, THOSE ARE ENOUGH FOR NOW, HAHAHAHA. watch them and tell me your feelings~
Re: D/E VID REC TIME MUAHAHAHAHA
Date: 2011-12-14 08:17 am (UTC)Basically, you've just convinced me that there can be such thing as a fanvid that wasn't made for the lulz...
Re: D/E VID REC TIME MUAHAHAHAHA
Date: 2011-12-14 12:22 pm (UTC)SOME FANVIDS ARE JUST AS GOOD AS META. Most of the ones I linked above apply. :D
Re: D/E VID REC TIME MUAHAHAHAHA
Date: 2011-12-14 12:47 pm (UTC)Seriously, why do we even bother writing things?
THIS IS MY LJ AND I CAN CAPS LOCK AS MUCH AS I WISH
Date: 2011-12-15 12:25 am (UTC)1. THE TIMING IS PERFECTION. The suspence, OMG. The first refrain with all the things caring and friendly, and then the anger and face-slapping (Damon ALWAYS has the same facial expression, always, he is so calm, and HE JUST LETS HER HIT HIM! Damon sometimes thinks he deserves it), and the second refrain with all the WRONG and disturbing ("Tell me how there was my fault..." - FLAWLESS). Mumford&Sons are just perfect for Damon/Elena; those songs just clash with them in all the best places (now I need a decent D/E vid to "Sigh No More", because with the right choice of scenes it would just NAIL the deconstruction of the romantic narrative!).
2. Ultimately creepy and unnerving. I keep expecting that something bad will happen any minute, and what actually happens? The kiss. Freeze. The worst thing that could happen to Damon and Elena is, well, Damon and Elena. I'm not even gonna mention the kiss on the hand. It still gives me chills, ok?
3. I DON'T NEED YOUR HELP. I DON'T WANT IT. I'm so cheap, just give me parallels and I'll be happy. The gestures, the quotes, the everything, it just feels like them. Connection, trust, rage, accusation. Yep, my ship.
4. The line "I've seen you in a fight you lost" really kicked me. That's one of my obsessions, people who know the worst about each other. Elena is growing up, and Damon is this person who, in her adolescence, got to know the worst. He saw her in the making. And he owns that. He will be this person with whom, even after many, many years, she will feel comfortable when at her lowest. #too many emotions connected with friendships
5. LOL, ok XD. How can you make a vid that is so sexy with a couple that NEVER went further than a deathbed kiss?
6. Sorry, no thoughts, it's so pretty I was just staring XD. But a D/E vid with "you can't love me" ringing in the background - I APPROVE.
7. CAN I JUST START WITH HOW BRILLIANT THE CHOICE OF QUOTES IS? We start with Damon doing everything for love, which sets the mood... and then we get Elena telling him there is something seriously wrong with him XD. It would be funny if it wasn't SO FUCKING PERFECT. Suddenly I need all the Siken quotes. "Litany..." is my favorite poem, and then it became my Damon/Elena poem, and now the only thing that would make the vid more perfect is the "Love, for you..." quote.
Preferably spoken by both Damon and Elena in unison.Other thoughts: the scenes from 2x08 are HEARTBREAKING. THIS WHOLE VID IS HEARTBREAKING. It actually made me thing that Damon REALLY DOES interpret love in terms of deserving, and, in his own way, he does all those things to DESERVE, but of course it's absurd, because love can't be earned. Caroline's voice in the background - PERFECTION. Damon fucked up this whole selflessness thing, and he still got under Elena's skin. BECAUSE THAT'S HOW IT WORKS. But Damon doesn't know that, he is a boy from 19th century, he has those weird presuppositions, and he is just fucked up as a person, and of course he doesn't deserve Elena, because love cannot be deserved. Love is gracefully given.8. THIS IS HOW I SHOW MY LOVE. Seriously, what is a romantic hero? This is perfection. This should be shown to every person during the first class of Damon 101. Damon, my boy, I love you for all those things that would make me stake you If I knew you in real life.
#NOT A SINGLE CAPS LOCK WILL BE REGRETTED IN THIS POST
I'm having a moment of "oh fuck, I should get a life". I'm also having a moment of "oh fuck, I need to stop saying 'fuck' so often" (seriously, I know that I have a foul mouth in Polish, but it seems that having actual English-speaking friends made me transfer my bad habits into English; I didn't swear like that three months ago XD). But let's face it, there is no better expression to describe those vids than "HOLY FUCK". And when it comes to overinterpreting vampire fiction, I guess I'm beyond saving anyway.
Re: THIS IS MY LJ AND I CAN CAPS LOCK AS MUCH AS I WISH
Date: 2011-12-15 05:00 am (UTC)I WILL GIVE YOU MORE VID RECS
1. I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW. And I am usually a bit "meh" at that song because the first-person POV vaguely irritates me. BUT THAT VID MADE ME LOVE IT. I appreciated that the vidder depicted Elena's RAGE too, because that is my favourite thing. And: Damon ALWAYS has the same facial expression, always, he is so calm, and HE JUST LETS HER HIT HIM! Damon sometimes thinks he deserves it -- YESSSSSS I LOVE SO MUCH. I think also he is pleased that at least he gets her fire and fury. That is his and his alone.
2. THE KISS. FREEZE. And: The worst thing that could happen to Damon and Elena is, well, Damon and Elena. -- OH MY GOD MARTA. !!!!!!! Sometimes this fandom just gets it.
4. YES. YESYESYESYESYESYES. ALL OF THE FEELINGS. Fandom makes a lot of "I like you now", etc. and I agree that it's poignant that Elena never really gives up on Damon. But when you reverse the genders, when it's the man who refuses to give up on the woman no matter what, YOU HAVE ME FOREVER.
5. I DO NOT EVEN KNOW. Well, it's about the ~short distance between them and all. *g* And you know, CHEMISTRYYYYYYY BABY. (Haha, I was just thinking about how I find a heap of random DE moments REALLY FUCKING SEXY when they don't even involve any sort of touching at all. Like, in the "I will always choose you" scene, the way that they sort of ~look at each other before Elena excuses herself. UNF. I can't. LEAVE ME TO MY FEELS.)
7. I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW. And that is an interesting point about love and deserving. The thing is, nobody needs to do anything to "deserve" Damon's devotion. But I think Damon truly is an "action" man. He sees love as something that you have to prove, over and over again. And that's why he's all for the big!dramatic!moments. BUT BUT. It's not about earning anything (not like Stefan's type of love, for instance). Damon will do these grand gestures whether or not they ensure he gets anything back. E.g. "I will always choose you." There is no way that he believes Elena will fall into his arms there. He's not that dumb. But HE NEEDS TO SAY IT. He needs to carry out that performance. It's the act of loving that he finds fulfilling. Like, waiting 145 years for Katherine--he doesn't regret that, he just regrets that he spent all his energy on a mission that was apparently pointless. You were completely right whe you said that what Damon is really in love with is the idea of being in love itself. That is how he defines himself.
And: Caroline's voice in the background - PERFECTION. Damon fucked up this whole selflessness thing, and he still got under Elena's skin. BECAUSE THAT'S HOW IT WORKS. -- OH MY GOD YES. This is what I love about Elena's feelings for Damon. There is no room for idealism at all. She can never ~justify~ her attachment to him. She has to accept that she cares for somebody who is fucked up because she is also fucked up. ALL THE EMOTIONS.
8. I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW. HAHAHAHA "DAMON 101". But yeah, seriously tho.
Re: THIS IS MY LJ AND I CAN CAPS LOCK AS MUCH AS I WISH
Date: 2011-12-15 10:03 am (UTC)Re: THIS IS MY LJ AND I CAN CAPS LOCK AS MUCH AS I WISH
Date: 2011-12-18 06:30 pm (UTC)1. I generally don't like first-person narratives, because they're so easy to screw up, but in songs it doesn't bother me :). Especially here - Damon is a very unreliable narrator, but we have pictures to prove him wrong, and the clash is the best thing in this vid :D. And, of course, you know what I think about Elena's anger :D.
5. Oh yes, the "I will always choose you" scene was so hot! And the necklace scene in 3x01, WHOA! What are your other "PASSION THEY CAN NO LONGER DENY" moments?
7. This pretty much sums up everything Damon is. His love is unconditionally given, but he has to deserve someone's love. He needs to say things, he needs to perform, and he DOES IT FOR HIMSELF. Which is twisted: he does everything for love, and it's the most selfish thing he does in his life. A very human thing to do, don't you think?
Elena's lack of justification is my drug. It is known. And I want all the vid recs. It is known.
Re: THIS IS MY LJ AND I CAN CAPS LOCK AS MUCH AS I WISH
Date: 2011-12-19 05:20 am (UTC)5. LMFAO THE WAY YOU PHRASED THAT. Word on the necklace scene. Yowza. Um. Off the top of my head:
+ In 1x03 when Damon shows up at the school and sees Elena at cheerleading practice and they ~stare~ at each other for a bit, AND SO IT BEGINS, LOL.
+ In 1x06 after Elena's found out the Salvatores are vampires but Damon's still able to come into her house because he's been invited in, and he does this thing where he backs her up against a wall or something but she stays firm and bitches him out.
+ The "people die around you" scene in 1x07 where Elena's FURIOUS and BREATHING REALLY HARD and um yes.
+ Skipping to S2 (because the UST becomes more pronounced mid-S1 and everyone gushes over all those other scenes anyway)--the moment in 2x02 where Elena steps in between Caroline and Damon's stake. THAT SHIT IS INDECENT.
+ This is gonna sound fucking weird, but you know that moment in 2x03 where Elena passionately kisses Stefan in front of Damon? I find it really, REALLY hot. It is so fucked up. Because the thing is, she KNOWS that Damon wants her, and she is trying to punish him, but the way she goes about punishing him is inexplicably sexually provocative. That passionate kiss is not for Stefan's benefit. It's not Stefan igniting her passion there. (Not touching the sexual SE r/ship GENERALLY because this moment is pretty specific.) This is what I mean by the "cognitive dissonance". You just do not act that way if you don't give a fuck.
+ In 2x13 when Damon declares he's decided to stay away from women, and there's this -moment- where they -look- at each other, and THE TENSION IS A LIVING BREATHING ORGANISM.
+ Their dance in 2x18. Nina's acting choices there are obscene. Obscene.
And... I find most of their personal-space!fail moments pretty hot tbh, even and ESPECIALLY the ones that are skeazy and problematic because yanno, this is a vampire show, I am all over the sexual repression/blurred consent thing. And I'm really fascinated by those moments where Elena almost seems to be waiting for Damon to do -something- because she doesn't know how she will respond (case in point: most of S3), and there might even be a part of her that doesn't want to be held responsible. (I think we've talked about this.) Because that's the thing, Elena typically enjoys being the one in control in relationships. But I think she is really, REALLY attracted to the possibility of NOT being in control. It's the tension between defining herself as a Good Girl and liking security (which she does), but also craving the loss of inhibition that getting with Damon would probably entail. It must be intoxicating. (Elena actually does look intoxicated in some of those moments, lol.)
Which is twisted: he does everything for love, and it's the most selfish thing he does in his life. A very human thing to do, don't you think?
YES.
MORE VID RECS COMING SOON.
Re: THIS IS MY LJ AND I CAN CAPS LOCK AS MUCH AS I WISH
From:Re: THIS IS MY LJ AND I CAN CAPS LOCK AS MUCH AS I WISH
From:Re: D/E VID REC TIME MUAHAHAHAHA
Date: 2011-12-17 12:00 am (UTC)LIKING AND FAVORITING ALL OF THOSE. HOLY MOLY.
Also, because I can, I'm going to throw these in unceremoniously:
01. I've never known completeness (http://youtu.be/LmTtgxbzdh8). It's an Elena/Salvatores video from Elena's POV and I think it's relevant to everyone's interests here. IT ALWAYS GIVES ME CHILLS because halfway through it's like TROLOLOLO and then the end makes me want to vomit rainbows of romantic, violent confusion.
02. ✗ I am a heart that sits in your pocket (http://youtu.be/fEVUIjo__3I). This always gives me feels about their non-verbal understanding and how wouldn't it be nice if they could work out how it hinders and hurts them? BECAUSE IT'S BEAUTIFUL?
Re: D/E VID REC TIME MUAHAHAHAHA
Date: 2011-12-17 12:15 am (UTC)Thanks for the recs :D. I really liked the vids, and I even have thoughts, especially about the first one, so I'll be back and catch up with comments as soon as I catch up with sleeping (which I'm about to do now XD). Right now I just wanted to say that I appreciate your cutting in \o/.
Re: D/E VID REC TIME MUAHAHAHAHA
Date: 2011-12-17 03:58 am (UTC):D You're welcome! I'm glad you liked them and appreciate it because I was like "would it be rude to barge- BUT THEY'RE SO GOOD~" Happy sleeping though! I can't wait to hear what you think c:
Re: D/E VID REC TIME MUAHAHAHAHA
Date: 2011-12-18 08:10 pm (UTC)I didn't even know that cutting in on lj could be considered rude; I love when people do that :D.
1. It's interesting how the Salvatores are clashed - Stefan is all things nice and peaceful, but Damon enters when anxiety starts, and he doesn't enter with romantic things - there is biting and fear and blood. I keep thinking that if this vid was made now, it would look so different; it would have to find a different juxtaposition, because safety/danger doesn't work any more, not in s3, does it?
2. I think this one is a few seconds too long - I'd love it to finish with the cellar scene, because it really sums up all the non-verbal communication. But you are right, this is about the "understanding", and about how good they are at it :D.
Re: D/E VID REC TIME MUAHAHAHAHA
Date: 2011-12-17 02:39 am (UTC)Ooh, I really like both those vids! I think I saw the second one a while ago but I had forgotten, it is very lovely. :D I think I'm gonna have to watch both a couple of times to ~process them.
Re: D/E VID REC TIME MUAHAHAHAHA
Date: 2011-12-17 03:59 am (UTC)Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO
Date: 2011-12-14 07:49 am (UTC)THIS! And it makes me so angry when people do it wrong, because, honestly, just wanting to bone someone is not a very special interaction. Damon and Elena have a story to tell, and maybe that's why I'm so fond of how they play with gender roles: it makes the story more flexible, gives it more interpretations, makes it less predictable. When I enterd TVD fandom, I started from stepping into Damon's shoes, and now I can go from Damon to Elena and back to Damon, because this ship gave me WONDERFUL OPPORTUNITIES to explore both characters! I always try to write all the fics/meta during hiatus, because I know that when the show is back, IT WILL SCREW UP ALL THE THINGS I HAVE IN MY HEAD! Isn't it glorious?
I think I saw that conversation play out, actually. It was after the mid-season finale, right? Because if that's the instance I'm thinking of, then… yeah.
Frankly, I can't remember when... But you might've seen it; you read the journal where it happened, and it's not like I almost get accused of being a rape apologist every other week ;). It was a bit absurd actually, because guessing a fictional character's feelings and motivations on the basis of body language, behavior and things they don't say is NOTHING like, idek, saying that a real rape victim actually wanted it because it was implied by her/his body language, behavior and things they don't say. This is FICTION. You are SUPPOSED to see things that aren't said out loud. You are SUPPOSED to guess that someone lies. You are SUPPOSED to judge by body language, because FICTIONAL CHARACTERS are played by ACTORS who consciously COMMUNICATE WITH THEIR AUDIENCE using body language. Seriously...
I see a lot of people freaking out/getting excited about D/E possibly happening ~soon. This all tends to go over my head a bit, because I'm just not seeing it
Lol, no XD. I mean, I sometimes read all those "spoilers" Julie Plec gives, but I do it for the lulz. Come one, this woman is a professional troll, and I admire her for that XD. I'm talking about things that happen within the show. Like, Katherine slept with them both, and for two seasons they were basing a good part of the narrative on a statement that Elena is nothing like Katherine. And now Elena, while still being undoubtedly Elena, starts behaving a lot like Katherine, and it's openly said in the show. So it makes perfect sense for the narrative if Elena sleeps with Damon at some point, and behaves in a Katherine-like way, but does something Katherine didn't actually do. Actually, it makes perfect sense if Elena sleeps with Damon and then does something worse than what Katherine did... Of course it's not going to happen ANY TIME SOON. Seriously, it took them over a season to deconstruct the good brother/bad brother trope (let's say, roughly, from 1x18 to 2x22, or maybe even 3x09), and they just got started with Elena vs Katherine (there are some hints in s2, but 3x09 is the first really straightforward attempt, because they were exploring Elena's monstrosity and Katherine's humanity simultanously). We're stuck with UST at least until s3 finale, and even that will probably be too soon. Idek, I can't even write a gap-filler D/E fic with sex, because I can't fit it into the narrative, let alone imagine something like that happening in canon soon. That's why I'm stuck with future!fic.
YES, THANK YOU, THIS GIF IS PERFECT! Waiting for your top ten \o/. Thanks for the recs :D. I'll get to them as soon as I'm done with all the tedious stuff, like school and Christmas shopping #real life is a nuisance
Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO
Date: 2011-12-14 01:42 pm (UTC)Anyway, agreed about your D/E sex thoughts (lol). The very most I expect from this season is some making out. Maybe. NOT PREDICTING ANYTHING. This show makes me fucking nervous sometimes.
But on the subject of attraction--when do you think Elena started becoming attracted to Damon in a non-platonic way? I have my own ~theories, but I wish to scoop your brain first. :D
Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO
Date: 2011-12-14 09:00 pm (UTC)But on the subject of attraction--when do you think Elena started becoming attracted to Damon in a non-platonic way? I have my own ~theories, but I wish to scoop your brain first. :D
THIS IS COMPLICATED!
At first I was going to say Miss Mystic Falls, but then I went all: "TROLOLOL, self, you've officially been trolled!". MMF is important, but it is 100% a Damon scene. His romantic delusion, his fantasy etc. Elena is worried like hell, and the part of her brain that isn't worried is a bit grateful. That's it.
I'd say that it starts in flashes. If Damon isn't physically there, Elena doesn't give a flying fuck about his sexual attractiveness (is that even a word?), but she has those moments when you can tell that she is very self-conscious around him. I'd say she started thinking about it when Isobel let the cat out of the bag in 1x21, but it didn't sink very deep (in 2x01 she has, like, a shitload of problems that is bigger than her Damon problem, and I think she means every word when she tells him that there is nothing romantic between them). BUT. We talked about 2x10, when Damon has an entire festival of trying to intimidate Elena with his body, and it works to some extent (Elena's reaction is different from her reactions in s1, see the "I was deliberately trying to get to the sink" scene from 1x13). At the same time Elena notices that she has some power over Damon, and I have an impression that she... idk, gets off on it a bit? Power itself is intoxicating (not necessarily in a sexual way), and here she associates it with the guy who is continuously provoking her sexually, so it might get a little mixed up. Plus, Elena is a pity taker; a normal person would just kick Damon out and be done with annoying sexual innuendos that give her those moments of self-consciousness. I't say that the actual attraction (as in, being attracted to him all the time, not just when they have those weird moments) happens off-screen, somewhere between s2 and s3.
So, to sum up: first thoughts after 1x21, first "moments" somewhere between 2x01 and 2x10, actual attraction somewhere between 2x22 and 3x01. What's your theory?
Now excuse me, I'm gonna go and have my brain blown up by some fanvids.
Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO
Date: 2011-12-15 06:13 am (UTC)If Damon isn't physically there, Elena doesn't give a flying fuck about his sexual attractiveness (is that even a word?) -- YES. I know exactly what you mean. And "self-conscious" is spot-on. When it's out of sight, it's out of mind.
Elena notices that she has some power over Damon, and I have an impression that she... idk, gets off on it a bit? Power itself is intoxicating (not necessarily in a sexual way), and here she associates it with the guy who is continuously provoking her sexually, so it might get a little mixed up. -- OH MY GOD YES. YES. YES. THAT IS EXACTLY IT. Thank you for articulating what I have been trouble expressing. She becomes attached to this messed up cycle where she exerts her emotional power over Damon to get him to do stuff--but she can't play this game without also accepting HIS "moves" (lol), i.e. his sexual provocations. So the more attached she grows to her position of emotional power (which isn't necessarily about Damon himself), i.e. the more that she "gets off" on it… the more attracted she becomes to Damon himself? Because the two get mixed up? Because really, the type of power she has over Damon is very specific. It's not common in any of her other relationships.
I't say that the actual attraction (as in, being attracted to him all the time, not just when they have those weird moments) happens off-screen, somewhere between s2 and s3. -- Huh. Interesting. What do you mean exactly by "all the time"? lol. Do you mean that she finds herself thinking about him when he's not there?
My theory is somewhat similar to yours, but different in some respects. Firstly, I would say that Elena is actually attracted to Damon in S1. She's attracted to him in the same way that she's probably attracted to random dudes on TV. There's no romantic attachment there, but she is drawn to his personality--from the beginning, actually, she is intensely aware of him. (Note that moment in 1x03 at school.) I think this is because she tunes in to the fact that he's not safe, from day one (that hand kiss!!!). Unlike with Stefan, she INSTANTLY recognises that Damon is a liar and a performer. And where her attachment to him grows is on that level where his mask comes off. E.g. "we have an understanding." I think THIS is where her emotional power ~issues start. It's not on a romantic level, because they're not romantically attracted to each other at this point. But on a very basic level, she is able to ~see through Damon when other people cannot, and she comes to value this a lot. It's why she experiences self-disgust when he lets her down (e.g. discovering that he killed Isobel).
So yeah, S1 = no romantic feelings, but basic attraction and platonic affection. S2, my feelings fall in line with yours--except for one major thing. I think S2 is where Elena does in fact start developing romantic feelings for Damon. But it's all subconscious. This is gonna be difficult to explain, SO BEAR WITH ME. (cont.)
Elena's attraction to Damon in S2
Date: 2011-12-15 07:03 am (UTC)Things start *getting very confusing in Elena's mental landscape*. She has to put A LOT of effort into mentally cordoning Damon off, for various reasons (the neck-snapping, his unrequited love). But there's a huge cognitive dissonance there. For instance, note the way she treats Matt compared to how she treats Damon. Hilariously, she was actually IN A ROMANTIC R/SHIP with Matt, and it doesn't even compare. The sheer level of intensity in her r/ship with Damon (the compassion, the hate, the sheer amount of effort it takes to keep him at arm's length) is something that really fucks her up. He's able to affect her more than just about everybody else in her life--even Stefan. Because her feelings for Stefan are solid, and constant, like a straight line, whereas her feelings for Damon are UP AND DOWN AND UP AND DOWN, and it fucks her up because he simply shouldn't have that much emotional power over her. She has to put all her energy into NOT FEELING ANYTHING with him, because her default mode with him is feeling too much. (Funnily enough, I think this is what actually accounts for the rock-solid-ness of Elena/Stefan in S2. If Damon weren't in the picture causing chaos, I think her r/ship with Stefan would be far less stable. But that's another tangent.)
SO. Elena's main Damon-related dilemma in S2: the cognitive dissonance she experiences between a) not wanting his feelings, and b) struggling not to be affected by those feelings. And this is how Elena's (unconscious) romantic feelings for Damon come about. BASIC PHYSICS, TROLOLOL. Whatever draws or presses another is as much drawn or pressed by that other. The way that Damon loves Elena is so overwhelming that she can't NOT be affected by it. Take "I will always choose you". In that moment? Elena feels something back. (Nina portrays this pretty clearly, IMO.) It's not that she reciprocates the sentiment, because she doesn't choose him, clearly; rather, what she is deeply affected by is THE FEELING. This is the same sort of ~reaction that happens on Damon's deathbed and which leads her to declare that she likes him as he is. It's not that the sentiment is true across the board, but the feeling is real.
... IDK if any of that made any sense at all. ARGUE WITH ME.
Re: Elena's attraction to Damon in S2
Date: 2011-12-18 09:16 pm (UTC)I actually think that Elena is attracted to the fact that Damon is attracted to her. It's a bit dirty, actually, because she doesn't want him, but the idea that he loves her so much must be intoxicating. Katherine was right, she does enjoy having them both worship at her altar; Elena is a good girl and she doesn't enjoy it THAT MUCH, but she does, just a little bit.
The sheer level of intensity in her r/ship with Damon (the compassion, the hate, the sheer amount of effort it takes to keep him at arm's length) is something that really fucks her up. He's able to affect her more than just about everybody else in her life--even Stefan.
Girl, you say "cognitive dissonance" and I'm all yours :D. But you are right, Elena has to put SO MUCH EFFORT into not getting too close to Damon, emotionally; it's not about sexual tension, it's about the kind of emotional relationship she has with him. She shouldn't understand him so well! She know she shouldn't have forgiven him for Jeremy, and yet she can't help it. Seriously, it would be easier if it was just sexual attraction; that she could understand. But friendship? Of course she keeps saying that they're friends, because it's an acceptable thing to say, but the truth is that it scares the shit out of her. Finding your boyfriend's psychotic, abusive, emotionally unstable brother sexually attractive - yeah, hormones. Having a real, deep, intense friendship with him - HOLY FUCK, WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?
Funnily enough, I think this is what actually accounts for the rock-solid-ness of Elena/Stefan in S2. If Damon weren't in the picture causing chaos, I think her r/ship with Stefan would be far less stable.
Spot-on! I didn't think about that! You are right, Damon, for Elena, is too much emotions, and that's why she is not comfortable around him. She tried to be balanced (and all the other things from "Skinny Love"), because she tries to rebuild her life. If she lets herself feel the way she feels with Damon, she would have to smash everything and build her life anew. She doesn't want that. She wants the old Elena back. By choosing Stefan, she chooses a version of herself.
The way that Damon loves Elena is so overwhelming that she can't NOT be affected by it. Take "I will always choose you". In that moment? Elena feels something back. (Nina portrays this pretty clearly, IMO.) It's not that she reciprocates the sentiment, because she doesn't choose him, clearly; rather, what she is deeply affected by is THE FEELING. This is the same sort of ~reaction that happens on Damon's deathbed and which leads her to declare that she likes him as he is. It's not that the sentiment is true across the board, but the feeling is real.
THIS MAKES ALL THE SENSE. I'm not gonna argue, I'm gonna AGREE with all the things, HA! You are so right - the way Damon expresses his feelings is overwhelming, intoxicating and intimidating, and she can't ignore it, because she can't ignore him, she physically can't remove him from her life. It's probably a bad example, but look how FANS are affected by Damon's feelings, how many fantasies are built on this image, how many people feel touched by this performance. Elena has it on a very personal level; she doesn't witness it, she is being made a part of the show. Elena is a compassionate person, I bet on some level she even feels sorry for Damon. And she is angry with him. She is hurt. She understands. She is attracted. She is tired. I HAVE TOO MANY EMOTIONS EVEN WRITING ABOUT IT!
*insert appropriate gif*
*brb, hyperventilating*
Re: Elena's attraction to Damon in S2
From:Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO
Date: 2011-12-15 02:05 pm (UTC)Actually, I'd say she started to become attached to him as a friend in 1x17, when they were saving Stefan together. This is when the mood rapidly changes. From day1 of Stefan's slippery slope Damon was there with Elena as an ally. In MMF Elena is just grateful - Damon saved her from a very ebarassing situation, and also prevented people from asking even more questions about Stefan's wherebouts.
Because really, the type of power she has over Damon is very specific. It's not common in any of her other relationships.
True. I mean, there may be traces of Damon-like behavior in other characters, but Damon himself is extreme.
What do you mean exactly by "all the time"? lol. Do you mean that she finds herself thinking about him when he's not there?
I mean it gets more and more disturbing for her, up to the point when she actually starts thinking about it, consciously processing it, trying to figure out what to do next. It might be simply because she starts spending so much time with him that dealing with all the self-consciousness on the spot is not possible any more. Am I making any sense?
Firstly, I would say that Elena is actually attracted to Damon in S1. She's attracted to him in the same way that she's probably attracted to random dudes on TV.
Agreed! I didn't mention it, because I wanted to focus on the strictly sexual attraction (in the narrow sense), but your s1 thoughts are my thoughts.
It's not on a romantic level, because they're not romantically attracted to each other at this point. But on a very basic level, she is able to ~see through Damon when other people cannot, and she comes to value this a lot. It's why she experiences self-disgust when he lets her down (e.g. discovering that he killed Isobel).
Damon offers judgement-free understanding, and he can actually understand her easily. I mean, it's rather simple? Some people just become friends immediately after they meet, because there is something in each other's way of thinking that attracts them. There are friendships on which you don't have to work, you don't have to get to know each other, you're just geniunely attracted to someone's personality in a non-sexual way. I think that's the case with Damon/Elena. They are those two people who meet at the party and spend four hours talking over drinks, because they immediately find that they enjoy each other's company so much.
Hmmm... And what do you think, how does it look from Damon's POV? When does he develop this attraction? When does he acknowledge it? How does it develop? To what extent do Stefan and Katherine influence this development?
Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO
Date: 2011-12-15 03:56 pm (UTC)I mean it gets more and more disturbing for her, up to the point when she actually starts thinking about it, consciously processing it, trying to figure out what to do next. -- Yeah, that makes sense. Though, it seems more like she's trying to figure out how to deal with a problem she refuses to acknowledge as existing. XD (See: 3x04.) MUST BE CONFUSING, ELENA.
There are friendships on which you don't have to work, you don't have to get to know each other, you're just geniunely attracted to someone's personality in a non-sexual way. I think that's the case with Damon/Elena. They are those two people who meet at the party and spend four hours talking over drinks, because they immediately find that they enjoy each other's company so much. -- YES! This is exactly how I see them. One of my faaaaaavourite scenes is their dishwashing talk in 1x03. They barely know each other, and yet Damon already intuits that cheerleading is not right for Elena, and Elena intuits that Damon is still seriously messed up over Katherine. This is the kind of thing that makes me D: when people suggest that D&E aren't really ~friends, for whatever reason, I want to be like FUCK YOU they are FRIENDS dammit. It's the other~ stuff that they suck at, lol.
And I think this ~instinctive understanding of each other is actually the very reason they would suck at having a conventional r/ship? Because the point of dating is having fun ~getting to know the other person, y/y? This is the social script that Elena and Stefan act out in those early episodes. They spend time together and talk about their hobbies and background, etc. etc. It's all carried out at this very reasonable pace. But with D&E, it's like there's too much familiarity. You're right in saying that they don't have to work to get to know each other; in fact, they actually have to work hard to achieve some sort of DISTANCE from each other. And for two people as guarded and distrustful as D&E, that's not a great basis for a stable romantic r/ship. It's already manifest that Damon resents Elena for tearing down his defences, and vice versa (2x12 and 3x02 are good examples).
Re: the evolution of Damon's feelings. Apparently there are some who find the evolution of his feelings confusing? The thing is, I don't think that he truly fell in deep until after S1. We kinda talked about this recently, no? I think in S1 the DE business is actually mutual. They're attracted to each other in a very simple way, they value the other person as a friend, etc. etc. Damon is starting to develop romantic feelings for Elena, but they really aren't cause for concern? It's not until the disastrous events of 2x01 that BAM. He's fucked. Because if Damon is in love with anything, it's the impossible. Damon is a masochist. He is like me with doomed ships. He is held captive by the perpetual unhappiness of wanting something he will never have, and he craves it like oxygen.
But it's not just that he wants things he can't have; it's that he is captivated by the POSSIBILITY that the impossible might become possible. Just that--just the possibility. If Elena actually suggested they date, who knows how he'd react. But what really appeals to him is the IDEA of defying the impossible. The idea that even though she's in love with his brother, and he snapped her brother's neck, and so on and so forth, it might still happen. Does that make sense?
Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO
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