semele: ([tvd] Damon/Elena z butami)
[personal profile] semele
I'm terribly late with fics for the meme, but I have this awkward feeling that if I was late with the meta, my head would roll (I'm looking at you, Frances), so here I am. The post is freakishly long, which may or may not imply that I have no life. I regret nothing. The banner was made for me by [livejournal.com profile] juana_a for another Damon/Elena meta, and I'm shamelessly recycling. The title comes from Richard Siken's “Litany in Which Certain Things Are Crossed Out”. The screencaps I'm using belong to ladymanson. The thoughts, I'm afraid, are mine.


Banner made by [livejournal.com profile] juana_a. Quote from "Little Lion Man" by Mumford And Sons.


My first instinct was to write this meta chronologically. Just describe step by step how this relationship was developing, and end with a big speculation paragraph explaining how, obviously, my idea for future Damon/Elena is the only acceptable idea ;). But then: I've read metas like that. They were damn good metas. I might have two or three new things to add, but not enough to make this post worth reading for anyone who is at least remotely interested in the ship; we've been through the whole “Damon tries to seduce her to mess with Stefan => she shows compassion => Georgia => Katherine not in the tomb etc” thing, haven't we? So that's not how this meta is going to work. Screw chronology. Let's talk about themes.

Warnings: This is a Damon/Elena meta prompted by [livejournal.com profile] ever_neutral for my December Meme of Doom. No functional relationships will be found in this post. No shipwars will be found in this post. Not enough graphics will be found in this post, because I have no Photoshop skills :(. All the romantic delusions that can be found in this post belong solely to Damon. Oh, and there are spoilers up to TVD 3x09.


Love Always Wakes the Dragon
A Big Damn Damon/Elena Meta


1. Do you trust me?

I often hear that Damon and Elena have quite an awkward friendship, because, if it wasn't for Stefan, they wouldn't really have anything to talk about. It's true... to some extent.


Elena: I think I got Rebekah on our side, too.
Damon: Really? What'd you learn from her?
Elena: I learned that she's just a girl, then she lost her mom too young, and she loves blindly and recklessly, even if it consumes her.
TVD 3x08, Ordinary People


When Elena talks about Rebekah, it's clear that she's thinking about herself, but then the camera goes to Damon, and guess what? Damon, even though he might've read Elena's intentions correctly, is also thinking about himself.

Of course communication is important in friendships, but in this friendship? Not so much. They don't have communication, because they have an understanding. They can't talk about stuff, because their relationship is based on sharing things they don't talk about. Damon, for Elena, is about how she thinks that she's one of the monsters. Elena, for Damon, is about how he thinks that he's still more human than anybody would think he might be.

Hence their awkward conversations about trust. Because, logically, Elena just can't trust Damon in 3x09. As [livejournal.com profile] goldy_dollar pointed out to me, he's broken her trust so many times it would be stupid for her to trust him. And yet she does, and it's not stupid. It's just that, at this point, Damon is predictable for Elena (or at least this is how she feels about him; there are things that the viewer knows and Elena doesn't, and they shed a different light on the matters between Damon and Elena). She knows when he might go behind her back. She knows when he may snap. She knows she has some emotional power over him. Elena's trust isn't based on Damon's good intentions, it's based on her knowledge of what he might actually do.

I don't deny it, it is a weird friendship, but then Damon and Elena aren't the healthiest people on this planet, and the fact that their friendship is twisted doesn't make it any less real.

2. Damon is discomfort. Damon is comfort.

Now, Elena's attitude towards Damon can be played on two levels: psychological and metaphorical. Let's be nerds and start with the latter.

Elena is the central part of a triangle - and I'm not talking about a love triangle. As much as I'd love it, there is no actual threesome, at least not yet. But there is a sort of a “narrative triangle” working, and, since it's so important in the structure of the show, I think it should be the context to read Elena.

Of course there are other interpretations possible, and there is more to Stefan and Damon than I'm about to do with them, but let's just accept this reading for the sake of the argument, because I believe it provides us with an interesting angle on Elena's attitude towards Damon.

Let's assume that the Salvatores aren't characters on their own behalf - they are just symbols of two sides of Elena's personality.

Of course it starts out as a binary opposition, because it's TVD, and they enjoy setting up binary oppositions (mostly in order to screw with them until there's nothing left). So Stefan is functional when Damon is dysfunctional, Stefan is reasonable when Damon is impulsive, Stefan is kind when Damon is passionate, Stefan is altruistic when Damon is selfish, Stefan is under control when Damon is wild. And Elena doesn't want to be Damon. Of course she actually IS Damon (see: section 1), and she doesn't try to deny it (they have an understanding), but she is not comfortable about it, and, as long as Stefan keeps up being the good brother, Elena finds it in herself to keep in check this “other” part of her personality, and this results in her being constantly uncomfortable around Damon. But as soon as Stefan starts slipping up, the symbolics of Damon collapses as well (the brothers only work as symbols when they're juxtaposed). So we can have Elena being visibly embarassed when she meets shirtless, drunk Damon in 1x15 A Few Good Men, but sitting comfortably with her legs on his lap in 1x20 Blood Brothers. It could've been two weeks tops for her, and yet she's moved so far for no good reason. Well, there is a reason: Damon can only work as a metaphorical source of discomfort when Stefan is working as a metaphorical source of comfort.

In s3 the game changes.

It's not Stefan vs Damon any more. Is memory of Stefan vs Damon, and the beauty of memories is that they don't let us down. Elena talks herself into believing that Stefan had some sort of personality transplant and he is not “the real Stefan”, so whatever he does, cannot break her dychotomy of safety. It breaks on its own accord, because Elena is getting darker and darker, and she can't really play it the safe way, not any more. It happens gradually: she gives up on looking for Stefan in 3x03, she is victimized by him in 3x05, she stabs him in 3x06, she witnesses the horrors of “Lexi Detox” in 3x07. The bed scene from 3x08 has a surprising parallel in 3x09 — Elena stabs Rebekah in the back. Those two scenes seem completely different, and yet they're essentially the same; it's Elena acknowledging her dark side, first metaphorically (by letting Damon stay in her bed and showing how comfortable she is with it), then literally (by doing something ruthless).

We could say that for the first two seasons Elena was othering the darker aspects of her personality by othering Damon, and once she had to embrace her darker side in order to survive all the horrors of early s3, she stopped othering Damon, because it just lost any sense to her.

Now, the psychological interpretation is much more down-to-Earth.

I believe we've been talking about it with [livejournal.com profile] ever_neutral: Elena's attitude towards Damon is somehow a reflection of her attitude towards her own sexuality, and I'm not talking about fancy metaphores. Damon is an attractive man, and Elena does find him attractive (see: Caroline calling her out on it in 3x04), but at the same time this is a forbidden attraction, because, essentially, Elena believes that she shouldn't bone a hot guy she doesn't love. This is one of her rules, and yet Damon keeps the interactions between them sexualized on some level (innuendos, “accidental” touch, flashing, opening her underwear drawer etc). He is provocative and abusive, and there is nothing attractive about that, but there is still something attractive about HIM, and Elena is constantly uncomfortable around him, because she doesn't want this attraction. She wouldn't go for it, she doesn't want to have sex with Damon, but she can feel this attraction on a very physical level, and she acts out by constantly showing him how uncomfortable she is.

In s3 everything gets at least a bit blurry, and, after seeing so many horrors and crossing so many lines, the unwanted, inappropriate attraction doesn't seem so bad. It's still unwanted, and Elena still wouldn't have sex with Damon, but now she has things that bother her much more, so she doesn't feel the need to express her discomfort the way she used to. She needs Damon as an ally, and his friendship is important for her. The “comfort” factor outweights the “discomfort” factor. It doesn't mean that the discomfort disappears, or that it lessens; it doesn't, there are just other things, not connected to sexuality, that make her react more positively.

3. She looks like Katherine

There is one very important thing about Damon/Elena that is rarely discussed in fandom — Damon isn't over Katherine.

Let's not get into some simplified, lazy interpretation here: we are not talking about rebound girls, and we certainly are not engaging into a shipwar. There will be no “whose love is more true”. We are just noticing a few simple facts. It's not about Damon not being able to tell the difference between Elena and Katherine. He knows they are two separate beings (he just gets fooled when Katherine wants to fool him, and it's not like he is the only one). Damon isn't over Katherine. Damon really is into Elena. Damon loves them both. Damon used to be this boy full of romantic delusions, and when he was turned into a vampire, it all got magnified. Damon loves the idea of being in love.

This kind of relationship is usually harmful to the loved rather than the loving, but here it goes another way round. Damon doesn't try to shape Elena to fit the image he has in his head, because this image has nothing to do with her; it's ultimately selfish. Damon just wants a person to love, and he will take anything he can get. Elena is good and sweet? Fine with him. Elena is getting more and more like Katherine? Fine with him. Katherine did some unspeakable things to him, and he still loves her, so I can't imagine what Elena would have to do for Damon to think she went too far. Probably set him on fire. Although even that might not help.

This kind of unconditional love is incredible and terrible at the same time. Damon has no standards, Damon has no expectations; he will embrace everything that's worst about Elena, and he will do it happily. He loves her blindly, and it has every potential to destroy him. It's also a bit destructive for Elena, because when she starts spiriling down (or has she already started?), Damon will be the first to notice, but he will not react in a way a friend would. He will follow her when Caroline, Bonnie or Alaric would try to support her. It's not about saving Elena; it's about a healthy friendship. The understanding and acceptance Damon has for Elena may be amazing and liberating for her, but there also is a dark side to it. As the story with Katherine shows, Damon takes things to the extreme, and that never ends well.

4. Be the Better Man

Elena, on the other hand, is full of expectations, and I'll try to be brief about it, because this topic is widely discussed. Basically the point is that, as the show goes, Elena develops a habit of using her emotional power over Damon in order to blackmail him into being the better man. Let me remind you one s2 scene:


Elena: Please don't do anything stupid.
Damon: Yeah, but stupid is so much more fun.
Elena: Damon, I mean it. All I'm asking is you try to keep it together. Be the better man.
Damon: Ok, then.
TVD 2x13, Daddy Issues


She isn't even trying to be subtle about it. If Damon wants to be in her life, he needs to obey certain rules. It makes sense, to some extent; Damon is an unstable, psychotic vampire, and Elena shows some good judgement by being afraid of what he might do. But, at the same time, having so much emotional power over someone is destructive for her, especially since Damon stops standing up to her (he acted out in 3x04, and that would be it; when he came back after that, he told her he would never leave her). Elena can keep Damon in check, but there is a price; their relationship cannot be equal, because Damon has lost most of his power (see: section 2; even when he was obeying her, he used to be able to intimidate Elena by using his sexuality, and after 3x08 he lost this kind of power over her). Elena is flawed, because she is human, and having that much power wouldn't be healthy for anyone. Damon is submissive. He gives in. Elena has manipulative tendencies. This is not a good combination.

What I'm trying to show is that the best things about Damon/Elena (Damon's unconditional love, Elena's capability of making Damon the better man) are at the same time the worst things about them; everything awesome in this ship has a darker side, an understanding can turn into abuse for both of them, there is a history of crossing the line and causing pain on both sides. Of course we could argue who is more guilty, and we could try to count who is more harmful, but this is a relationship, not a tennis match. It's a wonderful relationship, and it's a terrible relationship at the same time. It's both harmful and helpful, productive and destructive, supportive and abusive. You can't bring out the best without bringing out the worst. Elena tells Damon she believes in him, and he murders someone, because he can't bear Elena's faith. Damon loves Elena so much he force-feeds her his blood, and I doubt she will ever forgive him. When Elena stabs Rebekah, it's Damon who helps her hide the body. This is why I love this ship so much. The good and the bad are so tangled together it's impossible to make heads or tails out of it, and every time you stir it, you get a slightly different shade of gray. Love always wakes the dragon.

5. Oh my God, are you twelve?

Let's take a minute to talk about the ultimate idiot ship. It's gonna be epic.


Damon: How you doing?
Elena: Um, freaking out a bit. You?
Damon: Cool as a cucumber. Come on, remember the last decade dance? The vampires were all, "ahh!" And you were all, "aahh!"
Elena: Right. And we won.
Damon: Yes! We did .
TVD 2x18, The Last Dance


The silliness seems a little gratuitious, and yet it's hard to have a full image of what Damon/Elena is without taking it into account. Silliness, for them, is the way to avoid talking about things they don't want to talk about. Sometimes they use it just for fun, but mostly it's a shield: something they do not to expose themselves too much, and something they use to wield power over each other. Look at the way Damon uses his sexuality here (again, those thoughts are the result of a discussion with [livejournal.com profile] ever_neutral): he behaves like an idiot, that's true, but at the same time he tries to intimidate Elena with his body. He tries to throw her off balance, up to the point when he actually pushes her into a stream, and then confronts her about the kiss they shared in 2x22 in such a childish way the viewer can't help but wonder what's wrong with this guy.

The idiocy is supposed to help with self-confidence, it replaces the actual communication, it is communication itself. Damon and Elena don't exactly develop a habit of openly sharing their feelings with each other. Poking fun is safer.

6. Neither of us is broken enough to talk about it.

Let's sum it all up with some speculation. So far this entire post was about what Damon/Elena is, about power, friendship, and abuse, and sexual tension, and now it's time to talk about what it's not, what it would or wouldn't be in the future, and what it should never become. In short: let's speculate about Damon/Elena as a sexual/romantic relationship.

Damon/Elena will not happen any time soon, and it shouldn't. Just look at Elena. A girl needs to be far more screwed up than she is to know exactly what Damon is and still have sex with him. He is insane, and abusive, and uncontrolable, and have I mentioned batshit crazy? Sexual tension or not, nothing like that is going to happen now. Right now Elena is attracted to Damon, but she would never let anything go further. Come on, haven't you ever had a crush on a guy you totally shouldn't? A guy you'd never sleep with, because he is just so WRONG, but hey, he is hot and a girl has eyes? There is a difference between feeling sexual attraction and actually wanting to have sex with someone.

Damon/Elena may be a happy relationship, to some extent, but it'll never be a healthy relationship, because the “understanding” they have goes too deep under their skin. Each of them associates the other with the aspect of the self they are othering (bad pun is bad). It's not about destiny or undying love. Those are the symbols they made up in their own heads; they GAVE each other so much significance, and now they're stuck with it, because they need each other, on a very basic level: they have something supernatural going after them all the time (or they're dumb enough to go after somethins supernatural), and neither of them could survive this alone. They might comfort each other, they might find solace in what they have, but a healthy, balanced and funcional relationship is out of the question without some major personality transplants.

Damon/Elena would be romantic. Because Damon is a performer, and he was brought up in the 19th century, with certain set of symbols and prejudices that got kicked into his head. For him, love is worship. This True, Real, Human Love he used to dream about as a boy. So yes, he would pull all the classic, cheesy tricks from bad novels, but that's it. An act. Elena might let it go for a short while, but if she doesn't put a stop on this show, then Damon definitely will, because that' not the only performance he needs to carry out.

Damon/Elena would be harsh, maybe even abusive. Because Damon is a part of a circle of abuse that doesn't break overnight, because Elena is getting manipulative and ruthless, and they are both under circumstances that will probably bring out the worst in them. Because they are both selfish. Because they are both angry. Because, despite the fact that they aviod communicating, they expose themselves (look at Damon in 3x09; we've seen him having angry outbursts like that before, but we've never seen him having them in front of other people) and they are honest , and when people like that are honest, ugly things come to the surface. Because she can be dark with him, and he can be vulnerable with her, but neither is noble or fair enough to do it without collateral damage.

Damon/Elena would be friendly. Help-you-move-the-body, could-call-you-in-the-middle-of-a-night, I-will-never-leave-you kind of friendly. They are a team. They share things they would never share with anyone else. If they weren't so fucked up, they could probably take over the world. They could never not be fucked up.

Damon/Elena is not a ship that would have exceptionally good sex. They'd have angry sex and comfort sex, clumsy sex and drunk sex, selfish sex and sex that fulfills their deepest fantasies, tender sex and rough sex, real emotions and performance, understanding and othering. What they have is not about being sex gods. It could get ugly, and not in a hot way.

Damon/Elena is a terrible thing to ship.

And, finally, some recs. Because I actually, you know, treated this meta seriously, so I've been reading things, and talking to people.

— There were two amazing Damon/Elena discussions on my own journal; they just came out of nowhere and consumed a few days of my life. They're both pretty chaotic, but if anyone is interested, it's scattered around those posts: click click.

[livejournal.com profile] ever_neutral wrote an incredible Damon/Elena meta after s2: All You've Done is Give Up. When I was writing my post, I was trying very hard not to mention things covered by Alex, because why would I copy-paste?

[livejournal.com profile] laniaaa wrote an awesome meta explaining why she ships Damon/Elena and how Damon is a horrible person: very big, very long discussion on why i ship my otp, and why i sometimes hate it .

If you have some more D/E discussion or meta recs, please do tell :).

Date: 2011-12-12 11:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pamsblau.livejournal.com
This is just....I don't have words. I'm memming this♥

I agree with absolutely everything you said. If I have to be frank, I don't believe that Damon and Elena will ever have sex. This relationship isn't about good sex as you've said, it's about forbidden love, love that can never be consumed because it's so fucked up, because they are so fucked up. It's about friendship and it''s about passion.

And yes, Elena is getting more and more manipulative and scenes like the one in 3x04 are probably even more likely to happen from now on. They can end in a very ugly way though...

AND YES! Thanks for saying that he's still in love with Katherine....because c'mon you can't just stop loving someone who you've loved for 145 years, no matter how much he or she hurts you. I also agree about Damon actually being in love with the idea of loving someone.

What are your speculations for the end of the season? I'm quite curious. There was a spoiler a few days ago here.

http://damon-elena.livejournal.com/1011368.html

It's twisted ship, man for twisted people like us.

Date: 2011-12-13 06:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com
Oh, I think they will have sex, just not yet. I'd say the earliest it can happen is around the season finale, and even that could be too early. It's hard to speculate about the end of the season, because I'm not sure how far will the writers be willing to take Elena, how much will they shatter her narrative, how Katherine-like are they going to shape her. That's the beauty of this show - I can't really predict things \o/. I'm just hoping that after dark!Stefan we'll get dark!Elena ;).

Date: 2011-12-13 01:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kelpyfinners.livejournal.com
You just solved all my final paper woes.

Love is love.


.... more later when I get through finals week, I so promise!!!

Date: 2011-12-13 06:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com
I'm glad I could help :D. Good luck with your finals, and I'm waiting for you to be back :D. I can't wait to ask ALL THE QUESTIONS about your paper!

Date: 2011-12-13 03:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] goldy-dollar.livejournal.com
COMMENTS POSTED AS I GO ALONG.

I'm terribly late with fics for the meme, but I have this awkward feeling that if I was late with the meta, my head would roll (I'm looking at you, Frances)

HAHAHA I FEEL DEMANDING. BUT ALSO PROUD. You must always feed me. With meta.

A Big Damn Damon/Elena Meta

EXCITED

It's just that, at this point, Damon is predictable for Elena (or at least this is how she feels about him; there are things that the viewer knows and Elena doesn't, and they shed a different light on the matters between Damon and Elena). She knows when he might go behind her back. She knows when he may snap. She knows she has some emotional power over him. Elena's trust isn't based on Damon's good intentions, it's based on her knowledge of what he might actually do.

Haha this is starting to make complete sense to me. I actually came to a conclusion about this the other night? It's like... as reckless and out of control as Damon can be, he's the one thing that Elena feels like she can count on in her life when even Stefan (who was supposed to be her rock) took off on her. "I will never leave you" and all that. And that dependability (despite how undependable and crazy Damon can be) is something for Elena to cling to. HE WILL ALWAYS LOVE HER AND BE THERE AND STAN FOR HER and right now, that's the most predictable thing in Elena's life.

In s3 everything gets at least a bit blurry, and, after seeing so many horrors and crossing so many lines, the unwanted, inappropriate attraction doesn't seem so bad. It's still unwanted, and Elena still wouldn't have sex with Damon, but now she has things that bother her much more, so she doesn't feel the need to express her discomfort the way she used to.

I love all your thoughts here. Dark!Elena, god yes.

Damon just wants a person to love, and he will take anything he can get. Elena is good and sweet? Fine with him. Elena is getting more and more like Katherine? Fine with him. Katherine did some unspeakable things to him, and he still loves her, so I can't imagine what Elena would have to do for Damon to think she went too far. Probably set him on fire. Although even that might not help.

lmao Damon. Go listen to your Adele CD and throw something into a fireplace.

You can't bring out the best without bringing out the worst. Elena tells Damon she believes in him, and he murders someone, because he can't bear Elena's faith. Damon loves Elena so much he force-feeds her his blood, and I doubt she will ever forgive him. When Elena stabs Rebekah, it's Damon who helps her hide the body. This is why I love this ship so much.

UGH STOP MAKING ME LIKE THEM SO MUCH. :|

Damon/Elena is a terrible thing to ship.

LOL YOU. <3

I hope your D/E spec is close to what we get in the show (though I live in fear of their writing choices, I LIVE IN SO MUCH FEAR D:). I especially love the idea that Elena isn't so ~overcome by her feelings and attraction that she will jump into a sexual relationship with Damon.

Date: 2011-12-13 07:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com
IT'S OK TO BE DEMANDING!

HE WILL ALWAYS LOVE HER AND BE THERE AND STAN FOR HER and right now, that's the most predictable thing in Elena's life.

I'm glad we agree \o/. Another thing that is forgotten very often is that Elena doesn't have a full picture of Damon. She doesn't know about half of the evil things he is doing! Like, when fandom was all angry that Elena doesn't react when Damon abuses Andie. Just... HOW COULD SHE REACT? She didn't know! How on Earth could she have told the difference between Damon's healthy relationship with Rose and abusive relationship with Andie? It all looked the same from the outside! Stefan knew very well that something was wrong, Alaric probably knew, Caroline might've guessed, but Elena? She was clueless! So Elena's trust for Damon isn't just based on the fact that he is predictable for her. It's also based on the fact that she doesn't know about most of the disturbing stuff. When Damon went out and killed that girl in 2x12, he didn't exactly CONFESS it to Elena afterwards...

Go listen to your Adele CD and throw something into a fireplace.

LOL, my Mom actually brought me an Adele CD a few days ago and told me to give it a shot, and I CAN'T, because every time I look at the cover, I remember your post about Damon, and I just LOL too hard to turn the wretched thing on XD.

UGH STOP MAKING ME LIKE THEM SO MUCH. :|

Let me reply with a gif:

ImageImage

I LIVE IN SO MUCH FEAR D:

You and me both :(. I sort of trust the writers when it comes to Damon, but I have this irrational feeling that no show can be so good for such a long time, so I'm instinctively waiting for them to have some really epic fail.

Date: 2011-12-13 11:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] le-mru.livejournal.com
A++++++++++++++++++++

Date: 2011-12-13 12:11 pm (UTC)

Date: 2011-12-13 01:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catteo.livejournal.com
This? Is wondrous. I actually said out loud "YES, THANK YOU!" at the moment you wrote that Damon is still not over Katherine. Because INDEED HE IS NOT. He spend 150 years searching for a way to get her out of that tomb. There is no way those feelings will be going away overnight. How can he NOT associate Elena with the woman who she looks identical to? She's like the better parts of Katherine and I think he hopes that there might be some sort of redemption for him if only he can be better this time around. Terribly misguided, but that is basically Damon in a nutshell. Full of good intentions, crap at carrying them through.

I am now running off to read the other stuff you have rec'd.
AWESOME POST IS AWESOME.

Date: 2011-12-13 07:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com
Thank you :D. It's amazing how often Damon tells Katherine he is over her. Convincing yourself much?

She's like the better parts of Katherine and I think he hopes that there might be some sort of redemption for him if only he can be better this time around. Terribly misguided, but that is basically Damon in a nutshell. Full of good intentions, crap at carrying them through.

THIS!

Have a good time reading all the posts! :D

Date: 2011-12-13 01:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mugma.livejournal.com
BORZE, SEM. To jest... ja nie wiem \o/ Mowę mi odebrało. To jest najlepsza meta delenowa jaką dane mi będzie w życiu przeczytać <333333333 Zwróciłaś mi uwagę na rzeczy, o których nawet nie myślałam, lubiąc delenę i dziękuję za to!

Date: 2011-12-13 07:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com
Dziękuję i cieszę się, że się do czegoś przydałam :)

HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART ONE

Date: 2011-12-13 02:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com
OK FIRST UP, CAN WE TALK ABOUT HOW ACCURATE THAT SIKEN POEM IS FOR DAMON? OH MY GOD. Actually, you said Love, for you, is larger than the usual romantic love. It’s like a religion. It’s terrifying. No one will ever want to sleep with you. -- NEEDS TO BE STAPLED ON HIS FOREHEAD. KLDSJFEL;KFJSDSL

Secondly: YOUR WARNINGS ARE A+.

They don't have communication, because they have an understanding. They can't talk about stuff, because their relationship is based on sharing things they don't talk about. -- Yesssssss, so well-put. When Elena's with Stefan, it's all upfront. They say they love each other, etc. etc. and they mean it, what you see is what you get, there's no dancing around, they strive for straightforward communication. With Damon/Elena, their conversations are always VERY LOUD with the things they DO NOT SAY. Because it doesn't matter. In 2x01, Elena asks Damon how he's doing, and he plays it off and dances around, but it doesn't matter, SHE KNOWS ANYWAY.

Elena's trust isn't based on Damon's good intentions, it's based on her knowledge of what he might actually do. -- Yes. It's based on knowing HIM, not on how well he lives up to his actual word, lol.

Let's assume that the Salvatores aren't characters on their own behalf - they are just symbols of two sides of Elena's personality. -- I HAVE TAUGHT YOU WELL, LOL

Damon can only work as a metaphorical source of discomfort when Stefan is working as a metaphorical source of comfort.

Photobucket

okay I'm not actually ~shocked by that revelation, it's just that you NAILED IT. In one. And yes, yes, yes. This is why she trusts Damon. Because the things she thought to be true have turned out to be false. The curtain's been pulled back. And what is left after every single one of her dreams have been shattered? Damon.

Damon doesn't try to shape Elena to fit the image he has in his head, because this image has nothing to do with her; it's ultimately selfish. Damon just wants a person to love, and he will take anything he can get. -- HAHAHAHA YES PERFECTLY PUT. And I love how this very basic, selfish need of Damon's actually leads to this innate "selflessness"--for lack of a better word. Not selfless as in altruistic, but selfless in the sense that he will carve out his own self in order to fulfil this fundamental need. It doesn't matter that Elena can't return his love, he will LOVE HER FOREVER ANYWAY. And you know what, Elena knows this. And she needs it. It's one of the ways their implicit individual fucked-up-ness means that THEY BELONG TOGETHER LMAO. (Meaning: They belong, comma, together.)

The good and the bad are so tangled together it's impossible to make heads or tails out of it, and every time you stir it, you get a slightly different shade of gray. -- YES YES YES. FLAWLESS. PERFECT. STUNNING. This is one of my faaaaavourite parts of the ship too, that they bring out the best AND worst in each other. And, you know what, there are not too many people in the world who can bring out the worst in Elena Gilbert, and for that reason alone, I need her to be interacting with Damon all of the time. *g*

HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO

Date: 2011-12-13 03:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com
Re: the idiot ship. Haha, BUT I LOVE THEM FOR IT. I can't ship something that doesn't involve that constant disillusionment. They can mock the crap out of each other because neither of them buys into the image the other person conveys. BE STILL MY HEART~

There is a difference between feeling sexual attraction and actually wanting to have sex with someone. -- Ugh, thank you. I'm so amused/irritated by the way fandom responds to Elena's attraction to Damon. Attraction =/= consent. It does not suddenly mean that Damon had a right to force himself on her in 2x01, or whatever the fuck. Furthermore, it does not mean that Elena is some sort of cheating whore, or that she's in love with him, or wants to commit to him AT ALL. You can want something, and NOT WANT TO WANT IT. Isn't this the WHOLE POINT of vampire fiction? JFC.

(I do wonder about the show though. Right now it doesn't seem to me that Elena has any intention of going there with Damon, but I can't truly predict anything on this show, lol. My instincts do seem to be almost always right when it comes to character development and themes though, and the D/E narrative has been so painstakingly constructed from the start, so I'll chill for the time being.)

because the “understanding” they have goes too deep under their skin. Each of them associates the other with the aspect of the self they are othering (bad pun is bad). -- ugh, YES. They are just incapable of hiding from each other. ("You were miserable"/"You saw that?") AND I LOVE IT, HAHA. I can't even, I just love the idea of two people who just cannot make it work, but they are stuck with each other because whatever is between them is bigger than them. With Damon and Elena--they can't be together because they're too volatile, but they can't truly stay away from each other because THEY KEEP COMING BACK, it's inevitable, and outrunning the inevitable is exhausting, and they can't lose the one person in the world who truly ~understands them. What they have is something that exists against (and in the absence of) hope, or happiness, or redemption. And man, if that does not hit all my fictional kinks, I don't know what does.

If they weren't so fucked up, they could probably take over the world.

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Damon/Elena is a terrible thing to ship. -- IT SO IS. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. FUCK OUR LIVES.

Ahhhh, those conversations of ours. BATSHIT. SHUT UP, US. And haha, TY for reccing my disgusting post, sometimes I look at that meta and I just cannot even with myself, WHY DO I DO THESE THINGS. :| But on that note, THIS POST INSPIRES ME. It inspires me to get back to my top ten D/E scenes list that I've been secretly working on behind a curtain. Maybe I'll actually get it done before the show comes back. But for the meantime, TALK TO ME SOME MORE I WISH TO TALK. I also want to give you vid recs if you're up for that. SOMETIMES THIS FANDOM'S VIDDERS UNDERSTAND MY FEELS. oh my god I need to shut up. THANK YOU FOR THIS POST IT IS A GOOD POST. WE SHOULD DO IT AGAIN.

Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO

Date: 2011-12-13 04:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] goldy-dollar.livejournal.com
It inspires me to get back to my top ten D/E scenes list that I've been secretly working on behind a curtain.

YOU CANNOT TEASE US WITH SOMETHING LIKE THAT AND THEN NOT SHARE IT WITH THE WORLD.

/demanding

Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO

Date: 2011-12-13 08:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com
You are embracing your inner Elena XD.

Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO

From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-12-14 01:08 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO

Date: 2011-12-13 08:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com
They can mock the crap out of each other because neither of them buys into the image the other person conveys. BE STILL MY HEART~

When there is constant mocking, there is constant questioning. When there is constant questioning, there is constant change. When there is constant change, THEY HAVE ME FOREVER!

I'm so amused/irritated by the way fandom responds to Elena's attraction to Damon.

Once I said something about Elena being obviously attracted to Damon, and I got accused of all the standard things D/E shippers get accused of from time to time. So now I thought I'd be careful and write a Paragraph That States The Obvious, because, apparently, it's necessary if I want to avoid misunderstandings...

Right now it doesn't seem to me that Elena has any intention of going there with Damon, but I can't truly predict anything on this show, lol.

I think Elena will go there with Damon, but it's a speculation based on the plot structure, not on Elena as a character. There's just been too much foreshadowing.

I can't even, I just love the idea of two people who just cannot make it work, but they are stuck with each other because whatever is between them is bigger than them. With Damon and Elena--they can't be together because they're too volatile, but they can't truly stay away from each other because THEY KEEP COMING BACK, it's inevitable, and outrunning the inevitable is exhausting, and they can't lose the one person in the world who truly ~understands them. What they have is something that exists against (and in the absence of) hope, or happiness, or redemption. And man, if that does not hit all my fictional kinks, I don't know what does.

I NEED THIS PARAGRAPH IN SOLID GOLD, AND THEN I NEED ALL THE D/E FICS TO WORK ACCORDING TO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAN YOU PLEASE MAKE THAT HAPPEN? #too many emotions

It inspires me to get back to my top ten D/E scenes list that I've been secretly working on behind a curtain. Maybe I'll actually get it done before the show comes back.

I NEED THIS TO HAPPEN! I want your top ten!!! I'm going to figure out my own top ten list, and I'm not even going to post them or describe them, I'll just write them down and see if we make similar choices.

TALK TO ME SOME MORE I WISH TO TALK.

I shall oblige!

I WANT ALL THE RECS! I NEED YOUR RECS LIKE I NEED AIR!

Thank you for your comment \o/. LET'S OVERINTERPRET TEEN VAMPIRE SHOWS SOME MORE!!!

Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO

From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-12-14 02:10 am (UTC) - Expand

D/E VID REC TIME MUAHAHAHAHA

From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-12-14 04:59 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: D/E VID REC TIME MUAHAHAHAHA

From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-12-17 12:15 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: D/E VID REC TIME MUAHAHAHAHA

From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-12-18 08:10 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: D/E VID REC TIME MUAHAHAHAHA

From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-12-17 02:39 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO

From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-12-14 07:49 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO

From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-12-14 01:42 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO

From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-12-14 09:00 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO

From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-12-15 06:13 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO

From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-12-15 02:05 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO

From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-12-15 03:56 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO

From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-12-18 10:03 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO

From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-12-19 06:15 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART TWO

From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-12-20 01:38 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-12-21 06:31 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART ONE

Date: 2011-12-13 08:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com
Actually, you said Love, for you, is larger than the usual romantic love. It’s like a religion. It’s terrifying. No one will ever want to sleep with you.

YOU GET OUT OF MY BRAIN, NOW!!! I wanted to have this exact quote as a motto for this post, because it got stuck in my head and I couldn't stop thinking about it when I was writing, but then I decided that two Siken quotes in one meta would just be too pretentious. Seriously, get out of my brain!!!

In 2x01, Elena asks Damon how he's doing, and he plays it off and dances around, but it doesn't matter, SHE KNOWS ANYWAY.

The interesting thing is that when the dychotomy stands (= Elena others Damon), at the same time she sometimes attempts to familiarize him by establishing some sort of actual human communication with him? Like in 2x01 ("We should be able to talk about those things"), or the pep talk from 2x12. She knows that they work best with non-verbal communication (see: the silence they share in the end of 1x19), and yet she tries. Damon always shuts her down. The only time HE tries to communicate verbally is the pre-neck-snapping scene in 2x01 (2x08 and 2x22 don't count, because he was 1. going to compel her; 2. dying). In s3 it seems that they've established a well-balanced mode of communicating: they share things they don't talk about, and Elena sometimes needs to talk about things (like the bed scene in 3x08), so Damon listens. Now it's entirely possible for them to avoid misunderstandings, like, forever. It doesn't make them any more functional, but hey, it makes ME happy, because plots based on misunderstandings are my ultimate fictional pet peeve. IF BLOOD STAINS ON PERSIAN RUGS REINCARNATED AS PLOT DEVICES, THEY WOULD BE MISUNDERSTANDINGS!!!

Because the things she thought to be true have turned out to be false. The curtain's been pulled back. And what is left after every single one of her dreams have been shattered? Damon.

When do you know that you really are FUCKED? When you look around, and you see that the only solid, reliable thing left in your life is Damon Salvatore...

And I love how this very basic, selfish need of Damon's actually leads to this innate "selflessness"--for lack of a better word.

THIS SHIP. Selflessness born out of selfish motivations, on top of everything.

And, you know what, there are not too many people in the world who can bring out the worst in Elena Gilbert, and for that reason alone, I need her to be interacting with Damon all of the time. *g*

I don't even. You start talking about one aspect of this ship, and it brings out two more, and each of those brings another two, and so on... They could never be boring. And you know that dark!Elena is what I need in my life :D.

Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART ONE

Date: 2011-12-14 01:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com
I decided that two Siken quotes in one meta would just be too pretentious. Seriously, get out of my brain!!!

NEVAAAAAAAR.

IF BLOOD STAINS ON PERSIAN RUGS REINCARNATED AS PLOT DEVICES, THEY WOULD BE MISUNDERSTANDINGS!!!

lmao. Interesting point about Elena trying to "familiarise" Damon. See, but I think the way she reaches out to him in the instances you mention--I think she's doing what she's doing in order to keep him unfamiliar? It's hard to explain. Like, really, she should already know that trying to get him to ~talk about his feelings will not work? But that's the approach she would take with everybody else she cares about. So she tries to fit him into the same box. She won't accept that their r/ship is a total anomaly, compared to all her other friendships. If she started communicating with him in a different way, then that would be too much intimacy. It's not that she's being naive by saying things like "we should be able to talk"; it's that subconsciously, she's trying to maintain a certain emotional distance from him.

When do you know that you really are FUCKED? When you look around, and you see that the only solid, reliable thing left in your life is Damon Salvatore…

TROLOLOLOLOLOL

Re: HUMONGOUS COMMENT PART ONE

From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-12-14 06:34 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2011-12-15 06:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ladygawain.livejournal.com
Hello!

Here by way of Frances.

And I just - between you and [livejournal.com profile] ever_neutral, I'm just going to say, I'm having something of a breakdown. IN A GOOD WAY? Because feelings. TOO MANY FEELINGS I AM DEVELOPING AND HAVING ABOUT THIS PAIRING AND IT'S DRIVING ME INSANE. When you explain it, when you make sense of it away from the clamor of the many who just read it so wrong it in the fandom (Tumblr is an evil place, as are tracked tags, why do I do such things to myself, I will never know), it's just this wonderful, painful, ugly-beautiful thing that gets me feelings things and feelings things. Most importantly FEELING.

Okay. Sorry for that incoherent outburst and subsequent word vomit. Just thought you should know.

And thank you for writing this. I'm going to go and re-evaluate my life choices (and possibly read some of your fic).
-Magali

Date: 2011-12-15 08:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com
Hello, Magali, it's great to see you here!

Your comment made me so happy I've read it several times already, and I'm still grinning :D. I'm glad my interpretation of Damon/Elena makes sense for you. There is much disagreement in fandom; so much that sometimes I actually wonder whether we're all watching the same show ;).

Good luck with re-evaluating, I hope you enjoy your reading, and if you want to share your D/E thoughts with me, I'll be glad to hear them :D.

Btw, word vomits are valid lifestyle choice.

Date: 2011-12-15 06:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] youcallitwinter.livejournal.com
I AM SORRY. I AM SORRY, BUT WHAT IS THIS PERFECTION EVEN? AND HOW HAVE I NOT SEEN IT BEFORE? Oh my god, the satisfaction I got from reading this is indescribable. There were some lines that just hit the nail right on the head and I feel so incredibly stupid for not realizing them (like Damon's need for romantic love being magnified and his acceptance vs. Elena's need to make him fit a mould). I JUST LOVE THIS SO MUCH, I CANNOT EVEN. I WILL REC IT ON MY NEXT POST. I'd like to say so much but I'm supposed to give in a huge assignment by midnight (except, er, it IS midnight where I live, so that's gone) and I totally just spent the last half an hour reading this and had to tell you it's utterly fantastic and one of the best things I've read about D/E hands down!

Date: 2011-12-15 08:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com
Oh dear, I'm sorry about the assignment! School never should get in a way of fandom activity, doesn't it know it's just rude?

Thank you very much for your comment! I'm waiting for the rest of your thoughts :D.

Date: 2011-12-16 10:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] petitebelette.livejournal.com
asldfk; this did not disappoint at all. This has touched on so much -- okay, everything -- about how I see them in relation to each other and ffff the part about Elena and how Stefan and Damon represent darkness and light to her. YES. That has been tumbling around in the brain forever. Seriously, I just wanna link everyone who ever asks me why I ship Damon/Elena to this post because it is the most succinct reasoning and your portrayal of them is so realistic and unapologetic.


Damon, even though he might've read Elena's intentions correctly, is also thinking about himself.
ALREADY SOBBING.


The understanding and acceptance Damon has for Elena may be amazing and liberating for her, but there also is a dark side to it. As the story with Katherine shows, Damon takes things to the extreme, and that never ends well.
This made me pause. Damon didn't follow Elena in season two when she was on a martyr tear -- which personally I see as something a friend should do, even if his methods were not okay (making her drink his blood, duping her into thinking Bonnie had died, etc). Of course these are extenuating circumstances, of course; Damon would not let her die and would not follow her into this dark/survivor's guilt place because he loves her to such extremes. Your thoughts?



the best things about Damon/Elena (Damon's unconditional love, Elena's capability of making Damon the better man) are at the same time the worst things about them; everything awesome in this ship has a darker side, an understanding can turn into abuse for both of them, there is a history of crossing the line and causing pain on both sides.
The good and the bad are so tangled together it's impossible to make heads or tails out of it, and every time you stir it, you get a slightly different shade of gray

Salivating SO MUCH RIGHT NOW.



Damon/Elena is a terrible thing to ship.
Oh, and that's why I do. :')

Date: 2011-12-16 11:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com
Hi, it's great to see you here :D.

Damon didn't follow Elena in season two when she was on a martyr tear -- which personally I see as something a friend should do, even if his methods were not okay

Huh, I didn't think about that! Thank you for pointing it out. I guess Damon's selfishness could be an explanation: he will be ok with whoever Elena choses to be just to be close to her, but first she has to live. So yes, he did stop her in s2, because he couldn't let her die or damage herself physically. But I don't think that's how he would behave if we were talking about psychological damage. Brutally speaking, the more damaged she is, the closer to Damon she will find herself. The lower she gets, the "better" for him. He is not actively malicious against her and he wouldn't push her to fall, but he won't exactly make an effort to stop her. He will follow. What do you think?

Oh, and that's why I do. :')

You and me both!

Thank you so much! Your comment made me feel all warm and, you know, wanting to be nice to people ;).

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